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PostPosted: Wed 23 Nov 2016 21:47 pm 
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Mike Starmer does incredible work formulating mixes to replicate contemporary colours. Do you aspire to the perfect match? Although I detest mixing paints, I often refer to Mike's advice on specific subjects.

How hard do you try to copy the correct colour? Is accurate colour important to you? What is the correct colour? Factory fresh or time served and faded?

How do you approach 'Scale effect'? Do you buy into the lightening of carefully formulated colour matches?

Is near enough, good enough? Someone once said to me to paint it whatever colour I was happy with, after all, who are you building the model for?

Just a few points that occurred to me - discuss :jbo:

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PostPosted: Wed 23 Nov 2016 22:06 pm 
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Near enough is good enough for me, I can not be bothered mixing paints, its one of the reasons I don't like Revell instructions :pirate:

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PostPosted: Wed 23 Nov 2016 22:08 pm 
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Maybe a Poll, Ratch ...

1. Yes. Aspiration mostly exceeds ability.
2. I usually give about 7/10 for effort.
3. Yes.
4. Correct colour depends on the situation. If it's in a museum, it's how it looks in a museum. If it's in a boneyard, it's weathered. I try to capture a snapshot - not a gamut.
5. Mostly. The contrast is actually just as important as the correct colour, to me.
6. Yes, if I'm not happy with it, it's someone else's problem - I give it away :)

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PostPosted: Wed 23 Nov 2016 22:13 pm 
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As much as I enjoy Mike's and others' discourses on true colours in the end it means little to me so close is good enough for me.
>> Being colourblind I can't see the subtle differences in the shades of many colours, especially at model size.

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PostPosted: Wed 23 Nov 2016 22:17 pm 
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IMHO, there is no such beast as a "perfect" colour match. For a start, we are all (I assume) human, with a plethora of variations in our perception of colour. For myself, with one eye I see things with a pink cast, with the other a blue cast. So just for starters I have three standards of "correct". Secondly, the perception of colour depends on the light at the time - imagine the difference in the colour of leaves on a bright morning or in the aftermath of a thunderstorm. Even official descriptions are going to produce varied results if you are looking back even a few years, before computer control of mixing. In wartime conditions exactitude took second place.
So I do tend towards your latter sentiment. I think my aim is generally not to reproduce a particular aircraft at a particular time, but to build the kit, out of the box, with the colours suggested. Boring, toy-like? But it keeps me happy.

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PostPosted: Wed 23 Nov 2016 23:07 pm 
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I do my best to match the correct color, but I've only mixed a custom color once or twice. As Odysseus mentions above, color is very subjective and depends on your perception and the circumstances of its application and use.

Currently, I'm working on an Avenger in dark sea blue overall. I am brush painting this one and I didn't thnk I had the a blue that was close enough. I was going to drive this morning to a shop that has the model master acrylic colors and pick it up. However, I took a closer look at my stock and found a Citadel color that is very, very close. Looks good enough to me! I'm gong to do some oil weathering on the plane anyway. Plus, it saves me some money.

Historical accuracy is important to me, but if it slows my build progress down or costs way too much money, I am willing to compromise.

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PostPosted: Wed 23 Nov 2016 23:42 pm 
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Interesting points of view guys. I hate mixing, so I always try to get as near as possible with an out of the jar/bottle/tin/pot as I can. If Mike recommends 90% of A and 10% of B, I'll probably omit the B. Sometimes I just go for what looks OK to me. I see plenty of models where the builder hasn't bothered to get the camouflage pattern right, let alone the colour. That's their prerogative of course. And then there's the scale effect debate. Personally I don't buy into it. Deliberately altering carefully mixed colours seems counter-productive to me. It is all down to personal perception and choice really.

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PostPosted: Thu 24 Nov 2016 00:13 am 
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I build for fun. I will try and make a reasonable effort to paint the 'proper' colour, but near enough is good enough for me. Sometimes I will paint a model in a colour because I think it will look 'cool'. My model, my perogative. For me, life is too short to get too hung up on 'correct' colours. I just enjoy making models.

Mark.

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PostPosted: Thu 24 Nov 2016 04:34 am 
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I mix my own colors and study those colors for hours before I make a decision on how to paint a model. But I make my own decision, I draw my own conclusion, and I paint my color my way. I'm the ruler of my little kingdom. "So it is written. So it shall be done." If I say the spinner was sky blue then it was. I have the power! I used to read the instructions and paint according to the written orders. Now I have an internet of research available to me, and I can figure out how to paint it myself. I find other enthusiasts working away on learning the color of Soviet cockpits or Japanese wheel wells. I weigh their reports carefully and then decide which argument I like the best. It helps if the argument is accompanied by good, solid data and the sources are listed. If the argument is mostly intimidation and inference, based upon the weighty "authority" of the expert, then I usually discard that malarkey. But I would never tell anyone that the color is flat-out wrong. I would present evidence and let them draw their own conclusion. That, to me, is the whole point. Draw you own conclusion. It's a good, respectable choice if you can defend it with a reasonable argument. If you get into an argument every time you're challenged and start to get defensive, then I'll tend to ignore you, no matter how many books you may have published.

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PostPosted: Thu 24 Nov 2016 08:51 am 
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How hard do you try to copy the correct colour? Is accurate colour important to you? What is the correct colour? Factory fresh or time served and faded?

On the first Point, TBH, in General, I try the best I can using the info available.
On the second Point, not always. With the Airfix wargaming Project for example, I´m going for a close enough will do Approach as the result should please me, no-one else.
Wether the subject is Factory fresh or time served and faded depends. A factory fresh WWI Tank on a Somme dio would look odd and a colour faded tank coming out of the factory gate equally so. For General use, ie; wargaming, a halfway Point, a bit of Shading and highlighting.

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How do you approach 'Scale effect'? Do you buy into the lightening of carefully formulated colour matches?

Scale effect gives me a headache, that´s why I stick mainly to 1/72nd. I´ve tried larger scales but my method (or skills) don´t Transfer.
The colour matches? Those Chart thingies? I mix all my colours by eye and match to the subject. Reason - the colour match Charts often don´t take into account two things. What base colour has been used and what type of lighting is used to light the work space.

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Is near enough, good enough? Someone once said to me to paint it whatever colour I was happy with, after all, who are you building the model for?

Near enough can be good enough, if it´s for me and depending on the subject. Any colours for a Fantasy /what if subject but I wouldn´t be personally comfortable with WWI british soldiers in pink uniforms :lol: unless of course I felt like painting them like that.
If I´m painting an historical subject for someone else or adding something to my collection that is an historical subject, then it has to be as near as possible. Difficulty is then using available reference material, especially pics, as depending on the Quality, the colours can vary a lot from reality.Then, even the most accurate near to reality painted colour can end up looking different under electric light or natural light and more so in a pic..
(example, look at all the different Greens in this thread..before even being painted viewtopic.php?f=78&t=48134 )
which, depending on the camera used to take the pic, the lighting of the subject, then that pic is put on the web and looked at on someone elses Monitor that has been set up for thier eyes. Sooo many variables!!!! :lol:

At the end of the day..it´s down to the creator of the paintjob...if it pleases them, then that´s all that matters. :D

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PostPosted: Thu 24 Nov 2016 10:18 am 
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It's horses for courses as far as I'm concerned, the trouble I take to be "accurate" varies by subject (Railways = got to get it 'right'; Aircraft + AFVs = as close as time/available paint/importance attached to the particular model allows; cars = whatever finish appeals to my customising streak, the wilder the subject the wilder the paint job it deserves). But like others I hate mixing paint, partly because of experience failing to get even close to repeating the result when the original amount made up proves inadequate. That feeling was reinforced a couple of years ago, when I realised I was about to run out of LNWR wagon grey, with an awful lot of wagon kits for my 'layout of a lifetime' still to be built. Given the impossibility of posting replenishment from the UK, and total unavailability of British pre-Grouping colours here in France, I tried producing a homemade substitute. In the course of experimentation I mixed what was intended to be a 'neutral' 50:50 white/black for reference, but I found that however carefully I though I was measuring the quantities, I produced a visibly different shade every time (varying especially if I added white to black rather than black to white; or used gloss instead of matt; or painted out on a light background rather than a dark background; or mixed a smaller quantity rather than a larger quantity). For me, that just about rules out ever getting an accurate result from mixing, so I now accept I'm at the mercy of the manufacturers to produce a colour as close as possible to what I need (fortunately, an unexpected trip to England has allowed me to stock up on enough Precision PP382 to last a few more years, so that particular problem is solved!).

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PostPosted: Thu 24 Nov 2016 14:19 pm 
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Well, my view can be found in other threads already, but "near enough is good enough" unless you actually have references that show $specific_subject in all views (including any doors or access panels you'll model open) on the same date (and pre or post mission if applicable).

As for "scale colour" I have no time for it: A "coal-hole black" 1960s UK military interior needs to be black, because if you paint it "scale grey" it will look grey and not black.
(personal observation in support of this view - I used to sometimes eat lunch in hotels in Onich, overlooking the mouth of Loch Leven on the low level training routes, back when we had an air force :angryfire: and the "high visibility black" aircraft looked black even at 2 or 3 miles distance although the tactical green-grey or grey ones looked grey.)

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PostPosted: Thu 24 Nov 2016 17:08 pm 
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Slowly he turned..... Ah yes, "scale color." The true fact is that small paint samples look much darker than the house will look with the same paint on it. I discovered this entirely by accident when I chose a color for my house paint based on a small sample and then was shocked to see the same color was MUCH lighter and brighter on the side of the house. I couldn't believe it was the same color until I got the sample and held it up to the wall. Same. Exactly the same .

BUT does this optical illusion work in reverse?? Does painting a small thing in a lighter color make it look like a large thing? I don't know.

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PostPosted: Thu 24 Nov 2016 17:33 pm 
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Paws4thot wrote:
As for "scale colour" I have no time for it: A "coal-hole black" 1960s UK military interior needs to be black, because if you paint it "scale grey" it will look grey and not black.
(personal observation in support of this view - I used to sometimes eat lunch in hotels in Onich, overlooking the mouth of Loch Leven on the low level training routes, back when we had an air force :angryfire: and the "high visibility black" aircraft looked black even at 2 or 3 miles distance although the tactical green-grey or grey ones looked grey.)
Thank you.

Ratch could have expected a much more lively discussion on this point alone. I really liked WEM Colourcoats enamels, although they were thin and "scale colour". I think that the "scale colour" was lip service. No one paint can be scale colour for all scales unless ... wait for it ... colour can't be scaled.

My personal observation, when driving along a highway, for instance, is that trees in the distance appear to be the same colours as trees near me. Red cars in the distance might look shinier up close, and their details are more obvious, but they look the same shade of red to me, and my colour perception isn't too bad.

Dimensionally, there is an argument to scale colour, if you scale the wavelength. Good luck figuring that one out. However, the visible spectrum is from 400nm to 700nm.Start scaling that by the scales of models ... let's say 1:100 for ease, and you arrive at wavelengths outside the visible spectrum. Since that is the only valid argument for scale colour, and it would make for invisible models, I say don't bother with it. :)

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PostPosted: Thu 24 Nov 2016 18:52 pm 
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My way is that I try to get as close as possible without mixing, I have never mixed ever,
My argument for this is that even modern paints when working in 1/1 scale have shade variations,
An example of this, ex girlfriend had a silver Mercedes, it got the passenger side door and wing (fender) damaged, I arranged the repairs, when I went to inspect the work I found the shade variation between original paint and the new paint very noticeable, so I got the painter to 'blow in' onto the existing paint without masking, The paint was mixed as per Mercedes paint codes so should have been correct

Also any model of an aircraft boat or whatever, the real life subject will inevitably have variations in its paint during it's life, paint fades, gets touched up, gets totally repainted and slight variations occur in the shade of paint between batches, also depending on the light conditions colours change,
for a good example look at photos of Avro Shackleton AEW2's, correct colour is dark sea grey, in photos it can appear to be anything from light grey to dark grey

But I do appreciate the effort some people put into getting the shade just right, but at the end of the day we all build for fun, if we didn't like building we wouldn't build


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PostPosted: Thu 24 Nov 2016 22:45 pm 
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dancho wrote:
BUT does this optical illusion work in reverse?? Does painting a small thing in a lighter color make it look like a large thing? I don't know.

Basically, yes..but it will need some form of contrast to have the Illusion of being bigger.
https://laurelberninteriors.com/wp-cont ... .53-PM.png

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PostPosted: Fri 25 Nov 2016 04:40 am 
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I meant...you know... a LOT bigger. Very cool illusion, though.

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PostPosted: Fri 25 Nov 2016 11:14 am 
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The paint that Pusser uses looks a very dark grey on an RN ship in a stormy North Sea but the same ship in the same paint scheme will look very different in the lighting conditions of the Caribbean or the Far East. I can remember when I was onboard HMS Antrim in company with an RN task force in the South China Sea and the rest of the ships looked almost luminous in the midday sun.

On the subject of scale colour, what gets up my nose is the current trend to splatter ships in an oily wash to bring out detail. Unfortunately this is nearly always overdone and if the model was enlarged to 1:1 size, the weathering would look like huge streaks applied with a brush wider than a man's body. Rust is one thing but oily streaks all over a ship is ridiculous unless you are modelling a fuelling RAS gone wrong!

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PostPosted: Fri 25 Nov 2016 13:50 pm 
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@Fergal71 Para 1 - I think you've touched on another issue here too. With sprayed metallics the exact colour (even when you positively know you're painting from the same can, not just the same batch number) can vary if the angle you're spraying from is different and possibly if the gun speed over the piece is different.

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PostPosted: Fri 25 Nov 2016 13:52 pm 
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@DaveCov - I'd never noticed it before but you're right; the rust/oil trail from a vent on a ship should be no wider than the vent it's trailing from.

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