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PostPosted: Thu 26 Dec 2013 23:13 pm 
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Well I have been searching for the last 3 days on the net and my hard disk for any scheme that is interesting and is not the megasuperrepeated white, green, brown or the tipical combination of them.

It is always a challenge to find something nice for WW2 tanks but this time I am completely stuck.

I cannot beliave that out of 8000 t-70 light tanks built, all where green or white.

Do somebody has knowledge of a more interesting camo for the T-70, or in absolute absence of it, a camo from a similar russian light tank?

P.S: I know thereis the german captured version, but it is the miniart 1/35 kit with crew, so I'd like to keep it russian. I thought of a "recaptured" scheme, and I suppose it is what I will do if I cant find anything better.

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PostPosted: Fri 27 Dec 2013 03:22 am 
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Any shade of green, as long as you call it 4BO, I think.

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PostPosted: Fri 27 Dec 2013 17:26 pm 
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Brews, I don't understand. I am searching for some camouflage which is not green or white. What is 4BO?

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PostPosted: Fri 27 Dec 2013 20:29 pm 
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Only Germans used T-70 in camo.
Even Finnish's were green or white.
http://beutepanzer.ru/Beutepanzer/su/co ... 0/t-70.htm
and add german crew 8-) or built it as a re-recaptured with russian crew :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sat 28 Dec 2013 00:42 am 
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Dunno, Russian winter white camouflage differed widely with swirls, dots and cross-hatching. Then there's the ever popular scruffy worn look that everyone is madly replicating these days with salt and stuff.

Soviet armor camouflage is very poorly documented so there's lots of wiggle room here. Take the brown and tan over green schemes off Iranian front T-26's from 1941 or 4th Tank Army ISU-152's. Look at images of various BA-10 and 12 armored cars and remember there could be T-70's in those units too that weren't photographed. I have a copy of Armada's Camouflage of the tanks of the Red Army and there are some interesting white schemes for T-60's, T-70's as opposed to just overall whitewash. Plus T-70's could have red turret slogans and brown schemes like the armored cars they operated with.

There were 8000 tanks produced but not every one had its picture taken. Model the scheme off another vehicle that might have been in the same unit or place and time as your imagined T-70. Unless you're going to some stiff modeling competitions no one will question it or really care. And if they do just say Steve Zaloga and "Cookie" Sewell gave you permission. Neither would really question the camouflage even if they were judging the kit in a show. But you gotta watch that guy who wrote the KV-1 book; Neil Stokes. Even named his website 4B0. He loves that color.

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PostPosted: Sat 28 Dec 2013 12:29 pm 
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4BO is the name the Red Army gave to its standard green drab. I saw a photo on the web a few years ago of a Sherman in OD next to a T34 in 4BO taken in 1945, in colour. The greens were almost the same.

I find it hard to believe that many tanks in any WW2 army survived long enough to get as weathered as they are usually depicted. The replacement rate for some Allied armoured divisions in Normandy was 600%, meaning they were issued their complete complement of tanks seven times over between June 1944 and May 1945. That's a 7-week life. Dirty in 7 weeks maybe, rusty no way.

Then again there were some 76.2mm T34s still on the Red Army strength in May 1945, so maybe; unless they were repaired and remanufactured.

I suppose you can argue that almost any scheme might have existed, but presumably, the real perfectionist wants one that definitely existed?

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PostPosted: Sat 28 Dec 2013 16:24 pm 
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Beaufighter wrote:
4BO is the name the Red Army gave to its standard green drab. I saw a photo on the web a few years ago of a Sherman in OD next to a T34 in 4BO taken in 1945, in colour. The greens were almost the same.

I find it hard to believe that many tanks in any WW2 army survived long enough to get as weathered as they are usually depicted.

I think that US Olive Drab and 4BO are quite different. Any similarity would be temporary - as Olive Drab is known to weather quite rapidly and change hue from green to brown.

The average life at the front of a T-34 was 3 weeks, after which it was either destroyed or overhauled including repainting. I couldn't agree with you more about the over-weathering of some models - a point that I will criticize in competition if a tank depicted as being in combat looks like it had been sitting outside in the tropics for 60 years. Common sense, boys. It aint that common.

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PostPosted: Sat 28 Dec 2013 18:24 pm 
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The building is a craft--the weathering is an art. And what's wrong with green, may I ask? Green is a good solid, color of the proletariat masses. Only effete bourgeois tankers paint with the tan and gray and green stripes and dots. Green is strong. Like tractor.

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PostPosted: Sat 28 Dec 2013 20:24 pm 
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Beaufighter,
I don't think I've ever read such common sense to do with modelling before. Your comment on attrition was spot on, equipment in WW2 had a very short life.
So few people really think about the environment that the vehicle/aircraft would exist in. I remember a certain Belgian, who I think is pretty much responsible for the excesses in weathering. He once did a Belgian Air Force F16, and put RUST on it! A ten million dollar jet that had been in service (then) for just over two years! Do me a favour!
And he once put..... you guessed it, rust, on the monocoque of a Tamiya F1 Fezza....
So have a think of what the subject would have gone through. Battle of Britain Spit.... battered and filthy. Shiny multi million dollar jet in an era of shrinking defence budgets.... pampered and clean.

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PostPosted: Sat 28 Dec 2013 21:19 pm 
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I don't think Battle of Britain Spitfires were all that dirty either... :sofa:

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PostPosted: Sat 28 Dec 2013 21:35 pm 
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It's funny - I've seen some dirty ones. Among other things, rain makes for some dirty, streaky finishes. It's possible for rust to get on Fibreglass and other composites. It can come from the most innocuous places - a stray paperclip ... a bolt ....

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PostPosted: Sun 29 Dec 2013 00:51 am 
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SuperGlue Moth wrote:
Brews, I don't understand. I am searching for some camouflage which is not green or white. What is 4BO?


4BO Green was the Russian camouflage paint. You can read all about it here.

As noted on that website, although 4BO was a "standard", in practise it varied widely (and wildly). You can use just about any shade of olive green you like and be reasonably assured of its authenticity.

At the time the T-70 entered service (1942) the Russians were in very desperate straights and were not that interested in playing camouflage experiments with their tanks. They loosened up towards the end of the war (a bit) but by that time the T-70 was mostly out of service, it having been realised that the T-34 could do everything the T-70 could do, and could also do many things that the T-70 could not. I find it difficult to believe that there would have been much desire or opportunity to get "creative" with a T-70 paint job.

That being said, there were a lot of them, they were used (in their particular window) all over the place, and not all Russian units invariably towed the official line. The most common camouflage variant (not counting the winter whitewashing) used patches of brown over the 4BO base.

The reality is, though, that if colourful and "interesting" camouflage schemes is what you want, you're looking at the wrong nationality and time-frame.

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PostPosted: Sun 29 Dec 2013 14:43 pm 
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Many thanks for all the comments. Silverwings, thanks for that site, if I make it re-recaptured I'll use some of the schemes depicted there.

Bravo, I agree with you very much. The bad thing is that I haven't found any other interesting russian camouflage that fits with the T70 (I don't like to repeat camos, and I've made already quite a lot of russian vehicles-tanks) and the T70 doesn't have much painting surface and some camos wouldn't look natural.

Beaufighter, in theory they should be quite different the greens, I suppose one or the other was damaged, or simply the russian one used a different green.

Certainly, many modellers tend to "overweather" the kits. I have seen some videos of tanks and armoured cars going out of the factory, and they look like toys, they seem "artificial", so new and perfect. Personally, I am not very fan of weathering, although I have started to do it just for a change, as for many years I always built models like out of the factory.

dancho, death to green that is everywhere!!! I am a colourful fanatic. Usually, I simply try to never repeat a camo, so when I have a russian tank green, the next will be white, the next white & green, brown & green, grey, and the next must be another thing. (I suppose this is why I have 4 unpainted russian tanks!!!!).

BWP, yes, I know, I shouldn't buy any russian or US AFV's, but I like to have a bit of every nationality, or in defect, I buy just what it is cheap (and this was the case). I know that at the start of the war, the russians were in a rush and everything came out green and fast (or even without paint, in Stalingrad) from the factory, but after there should be some camos, and if there was a bit more of pics I am sure there will be something.

I think I will end up doing it recaptured, either painting a blob of green over the balkankreuz, or with a communist flag over, as if there hasn't been time to repaint it.

If my googled searches are not fruitful, that is what I'll do.

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PostPosted: Sun 29 Dec 2013 18:48 pm 
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I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but here goes again:

One hour of operation will get a tank filthy dirty to the point where no markings are visible and it's a rolling pile of dust or mud. Most tanks get filthy that road march to combat. German Pzkpfw IV's in Italy that had not yet seen combat were horribly beat up and weathered just getting to the combat zone. Most had damaged fenders before they had fired a shot and looked like they had been through hell when all they had done was drive along Italian roads.

But yes the paint chipping and rust is far, far overdone. But that doesn't mean it takes months for it to happen. I had a brand new just repainted M60A3 where the paint chipped every time I touched it. Slam the TC's hatch once and there's metal wear around the lip. Tankers are brutal, hard-working types and treat their rides very tough. It stays beautiful and brand new until it's issued, then all bets are off. :Tank:

In fact one slogan of US Armor is "Treat'em rough"

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PostPosted: Sun 29 Dec 2013 21:35 pm 
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Then there is also those airplanes that had known "bad" paint applications, like the Lioré et Olivier 451, were all real pics you find have the aircraft inmensely chipped off as if it had fought all the war. By the other side, you see some Spitfire that look new, but they have fought for at least 1 year, and the only thing that tells you the plane is not new is a big patch of smoke in the exhausts.

And well, in modern militar things, like 1980s till now, there is just mud & dirt. It seems they are thoroughly painted, and I've seen some retired modern tanks which don't have any sign of wear nor paint chipping.

bravo1102, you really own a real tank? that is one of my dreams :P .

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PostPosted: Sun 29 Dec 2013 22:09 pm 
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SuperGlue Moth wrote:
bravo1102, you really own a real tank? that is one of my dreams :P .


I think he borrowed it from his Uncle... :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon 30 Dec 2013 00:35 am 
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bravo1102 wrote:
looked like they had been through hell when all they had done was drive along Italian roads.
They HAD been through hell - have you ever tried driving on Italian roads? :)


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PostPosted: Sun 05 Jan 2014 22:47 pm 
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http://legion-afv.narod.ru/USSR/Light-U ... ka_001.JPG

I know it has green in, but its a bit more colourful. Yes I am also aware that its a T-30, but its a light tank..............


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PostPosted: Mon 06 Jan 2014 23:56 pm 
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I'd like to offer an alternative idea. Why don't you look into the many different markings that were put on tanks by the many different groups who bought them. I remember seeing a company of tanks being presented by the Russian Orthodox Church ! In fact ,I have a T-70 kit with something on it. PM me if you're intrested and I will dig it out and send it to you if you like it. You could do a whitewashed green with Brown with lots of wear to the whitewash. The Russians didn't much waste time on camo.

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PostPosted: Tue 07 Jan 2014 21:49 pm 
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Wing. Co, interesting proposal, I have finished now the tank (I finished it the 3rd of January) but as I have many russian tanks unpainted maybe I'll use it.

Father Ennis, as I've said, sadly it is too late for the T 70, but I might have a use for it, I still have to paint 5 russian tanks at least. I'll PM you now.

Soon I'll post pics, I've finally gone for a Very scheme, like a BA-6 I found.

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