- The Airfix Tribute Forum -

James Russell · Posted: Sat 29 Nov 2008 20:52 pm Post subject: James Russell's Grant Attempt

I haven't built an Airfix Grant tank since 1974! Now I'm going to give it another go. In 1974 I had trouble with the hull and the turret was a mite wobbly.
Along with correcting these problems, I'd also like to add a full set of fenders and sand shields. Judging by photographs of the Imperial War Museum Grant, these shields were different than the ones used on Lee tanks (Grants being "Squared off" at the ends).
I'll be using George Bradford"s line drawings from "British Armored Fighting Vehicles (World War II AFV Plans)."

Anyone tried "improving" the Airfix turret before?

farmroad38 · Posted: Sat 29 Nov 2008 21:07 pm Post subject:

Hi James,

Good to see you joining in - looking forward to see your build.

In future, if you want to take part in a group build, you need to sign up to the usergroup and allow the group build leader to create your build thread - full instructions are here. To complete the formalities, can you please sign up to the usergroup for this GB.

Thanks!
_________________
Cheers,

Adrian

Ratch · Posted: Sun 30 Nov 2008 08:35 am Post subject:

Hello James and Welcome

to the Airfix Tribute Forum

We appreciate how exciting it is to discover this treasure chest of all things Airfix, and we like to keep things as friendly as possible, so a moment invested here will ensure you don't go treading on toes or putting foot-in-mouth

Please take a moment to peruse the site Rules

these are to facilitate a relaxed and trouble-free atmosphere on the site

You may wish to introduce yourself here

The search facility is quite useful. If you have a question about something specific, try the search first

Just remember, if you enter Hurricane a lot more threads will appear than if you search for 14002 (for example)

Most of all, enjoy your time here. Don't be shy. Ask questions - the only stupid question is the one you didn't ask

_________________
and was Jerusalem, builded here
The new No. 2
Airfix Club 500287
IPMS 10983

James Russell · Posted: Sun 30 Nov 2008 11:09 am Post subject:

Dear forum fellows,
Thanks for the extra help with the proper sign on procedure. Yesterday the process was not sinking in with me. Makes sense now. I'm not bright, perhaps, but can be trained.

I'll move over to my new authorized thread from now.

Regards,
James Russell

farmroad38 · Posted: Sun 30 Nov 2008 12:05 pm Post subject:

No problem James, we'll soon whip you into shape

Glad to see you've signed up - no need to move into a new thread, just carry on in this one.
_________________
Cheers,

Adrian

stuzzar · Posted: Sun 30 Nov 2008 12:39 pm Post subject:

Welcome aboard James.

I am looking forward to seeing your build we haven't got a desert Grant in the offing at the moment.

Are you going to have a go at modifying or creating a new turret for the Grant, I have not been brave enough as yet. There is a conversion/update set available from Matador Models but it seems quite expensive.

Cheers

Stu

James Russell · Posted: Sun 30 Nov 2008 20:43 pm Post subject:

Probably obvious by now, but just for the record, I'll be building the Grant version of Airfix 01317 1.76 scale M3 Lee/Grant Tank.

I'm hoping to use the kit turret as the base and build up with veneers from there. The Airfix Grant turret-ring is really unfortunate - not much more than a centimetre across. I'm going to try cutting it away and adding the disk (turret-ring) I cut off the bottom of the Lee.

For how accurate the hull is in this kit (it compares mighty favourably with the Bradford drawings) one would think the turret would have been a bit closer to accurate. I wonder whether the kit was engineered by one person or whether someone did the hull and someone else the turret?

The kit Grant turret does give me a mass to begin with and a way to join the turret to the hull. I'll try cutting the pistol-ports away and applying them to the new expanded turret.

Once I have the rough shape I'll fill with Squadron putty - I have some of the "Green Stuff" starting to get stiff in the tube and I have found this is much better for building. Fresh Squadron putty is a powerful plastic solvent in its own right. Drier putty is less likely to warp other parts.

If Plan "A" doesn't pan out, I'll have to start from scratch. The dimensions of the turret ring, the turret face, commander's hatch, and the widest perimeter are quite obvious from the line drawings. The rest looks like a challenge, but at this scale it doesn't mean sanding for a month of Sundays.

Next stop - a photograph. I'll post in a day or two.

James Russell · Posted: Tue 02 Dec 2008 01:58 am Post subject:

Last night the work began. After a few weeks of staring at the parts and the plans I finally set to with styrene and solvent. Opening the Airfix box revealed the same little parts I remember from building the kit in the early 70s, albeit in light grey instead of the then standard dark green. The parts look crisp and clean (like jeweller’s work compared with the Airfix Shermans I am accustomed to) and have been easy to trim from the sprues. The bogies, in particular, are beautiful gems. As for the hull, the rivets do not look overdone, and the surface detail is nicely in proportion. This kit dates from the ancient yore of 1969, and the engineers have nothing to be ashamed of. It is a fine model.

The transfers are different! I think they are, at any rate. All the white transfers look the same, but there used to be an 8th Army insignia; a yellow cross on a white shield, mounted on a blue rectangle. This has been replaced with a plain white shield on red. I don’t believe this represents any British Commonwealth forces of the Second World War. I will need to ponder what transfers to borrow for my project.

Per chance George Bradford is an unknown quantity to some. He has been making line drawings of AFVs for decades. I first came across his work in the 1970s in “Bellona” publications. He has also appeared quite a bit in the 1980s American publication “Military Modeler.” His most recent work is compiled in a series of soft-bound volumes, covering WW2 subjects, published by Stackpole. Titles cover early and late German, US, British, Soviet, and the collected “other” nations. In the last may be found a few vehicles from Bradford’s “patria”- Canada.

Is there a grander sort of polystyrene for model builders than the sort Airfix uses? Absolutely not! I have enjoyed many fine kits from other manufacturers, but when a large change needs to be made the ease of cutting and sanding of Airfix plastic hasn’t been bettered.

The box art is more telling than one might think at first. The Airfix illustration of the Grant rushing past a burning German truck (that apart from the left-hand steering column, looks mighty British to me) is the same as it was when it decorated the header of the plastic bags of the 1960s. The artist has probably used the model itself as a reference - after all, the diminutive "turretette" is right there with the commander popping out. Closed up, one wonders what sort of abattoir scene would ensue within the turret should the 37mm gun be fired. Back to the model: checking the dimensions of the kit turret [parts 44-48] it seems most aspects are too small. Exceptions are:
1) the distance from the centre to the front face (the front face angle is also correct).
2) the length and shape of the 37mm gun (although the mantel [part 48] is too small)
3) the commander’s cupola [part 46] is generally correct, but needs some modification.

To begin, I cut off the pistol-ports on the turret sides and have put them in safe keeping for later. I’m no engineer, but one of the easiest ways to quickly improve this turret would seem to be increasing its stature. I’ve achieved this by carefully removing the turret base from the Lee [parts 38-39] and placing it under the Grant turret. This requires the removal of the Grant turret rings.

When all of this drys and firms I’ll need to add more Squadron putty. I suppose this is now more properly a scratch build than a modification. Truly, making the Grant turret may either be viewed as a delicate thing of beauty or a thorough going beast! I’m reserving judgment.

The Grant turret roof slopes away to the starboard. I have put steps in my veneers, but this will have to be supplemented with putty. To be continued in a few days.

Ratch · Posted: Tue 02 Dec 2008 10:57 am Post subject:

Hi James, there seems to be a problem with your pictures

Have you read this

EDIT - I see you had disabled HMTL & BBCode in that post

_________________
and was Jerusalem, builded here
The new No. 2
Airfix Club 500287
IPMS 10983

DavidM · Posted: Tue 02 Dec 2008 11:23 am Post subject:

Hi James

Unless you're building Montgomery's own command tank, which is what the original Airfix markings are for, you can go for rounded ends to the sandshields as both versions appeared on Grants. The sandshields on the IWM tank are modern replicas anyway as the tank on show isn't the one used by Montgomery in North Africa.

Sandshields could get battered, like this 4 County of London Yeomanry tank photographed bombing up during the battle around Knightsbridge.

http://www.ksymuseum.org.uk/picture/100578.jpg

David
_________________
David Maynard. 1962-2009. Gone too soon but not forgotten.

James Russell · Posted: Tue 02 Dec 2008 14:10 pm Post subject:

Oh dear! I'm sorry you have to work with an amateur. I have already confessed to being less than bright - now we will see if I'm trainable.

I'll try again using your hmtl blah, blah suggestion.

Thanks for you kind indulgence.

Ratch · Posted: Tue 02 Dec 2008 14:30 pm Post subject:

James Russell · Posted: Wed 03 Dec 2008 16:02 pm Post subject:

I have begun applying putty over the kit turret with veneers. I learned long ago to use Squadron putty sparingly because it can remove detail and warp the styrene parts with which it comes in contact. Lately, I have realized that older putty loses some of its solvent power. Old putty behaves a bit more like modelling clay – a characteristic that appeals to my skills. It also doesn’t shrink as much as the fresh stuff. As it does get a bit firmer with age, unfortunately, it becomes more difficult to squeeze from the tube. Small price to pay for a more manageable medium.

The shape is built up, a light brush over with some liquid cement, let dry for a day, sand, and then repeat as necessary. I am frequently checking the shape against the fine 4-view drawings, nevertheless, photographs are a must! The Grant turret is a curious creature - angling off in unexpected directions (I doubt Dr. Porsche would have addressed the challenge the British Tank Purchasing Commission presented to Baldwin Locomotive in quite the same way).

My plan to replace the Grant turret ring with the Lee’s has provided a more plausible diameter, but not sufficient height. I have cut an additional disk out of 20 thou sheet to address this.

In a few days I’ll begin the hull. I hope I learn how to add images properly.

stuzzar · Posted: Fri 05 Dec 2008 15:39 pm Post subject:

That is coming along nicely James, you don't fancy making a mould and casting a few Grant turrets up do you

Cheers

Stu

James Russell · Posted: Fri 05 Dec 2008 15:59 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the encouragement. Making resin casts: the temptation is there. It would be the first time for me.

Ratch · Posted: Fri 05 Dec 2008 23:33 pm Post subject:

some pix have gone

_________________
and was Jerusalem, builded here
The new No. 2
Airfix Club 500287
IPMS 10983

James Russell · Posted: Fri 05 Dec 2008 23:54 pm Post subject:

Sorry about the photos. I've figured out how to restore them. They really shouldn't let me near this 20th century tech stuff. I spent most of my day with the 3rd century Post-Nicean Fathers. You can rest assured they never had to put up with this stuff.

Thanks for the heads-up.

James Russell · Posted: Sun 07 Dec 2008 23:47 pm Post subject:

Does anyone else believe that there is a mystical curse on 1.76 scale M3 hulls? This Grant hull is fiddly in the extreme. The other M3 hull I’ve worked with is the Matchbox M7 Priest. That is in the category “fiddly” too. Both kits have many hull constituent parts. The benefits are obvious – detail in two part injection molding can only occur “beam on” to the mold, plus many parts offer less work in conversion preparation. Still, when one is engaged in a straight forward build, many parts make for some difficult hours hoping the parts set properly together.

To the construction. I have long since ceased following Airfix kit instructions at least in this respect – I build the hulls first before adding the bogie assemblies. With our M3, I cemented together the floor and lower hulls and then added the glacis. This has been normal for me with most tank models as the glacis and turret are surely the most martial features of any tank. From there, I proceed down the model to the back.

This plan yielded a bad result with the Airfix M3 – the starboard upper hull [part 54] is skew-whiff! In fine form just above the tracks, but a full millimetre out by the time it reaches hull top. After checking many measurements against the line drawings I concluded that the culprit must be the engine deck [part 55]. Nevertheless, this part also measured out as true and correct. I was flummoxed. I decided to prove to myself that the engine deck was the problem by building another M3 hull I had handy from the back forwards, and without putting the engine deck in place. A lot to go through to get the obvious answer – the engine deck is the problem. Build the hull without it and the model goes together almost effortlessly.

When the parts had dried I started considering the engine deck. Putting it in place it wouldn’t sit properly. I looked at the rear of the model and everything regarding the lower hull construction appeared to be correct. The floor and two lower hull sides ran parallel and at right angles where appropriate. Then why is there not room for the engine deck to fall into place? It ought to. I decided to turn the piece over and remove the placement guides that run down either side.

This allowed the part a little more play, and it was possible to place in exactly where it ought to sit. This, however, is not its natural tendency – it would rather slide to the starboard. A little attention when cementing and the biggest hull problem goes away. A bit of filler at the rear hull, port upper, cinches the deal.

Modern kits are engineered to such a standard that one can fit a part in place and know it will be in proper alignment with the parts put in place a day or two later. The frustration, joy, and challenge of one of these beautiful old fillies from the Airfix stable is that all the parts comprising the hull must be able to move a bit as they are cemented and setting in order to adjust in relation to the other parts. Constructing the Lee/Grant hull can be, to use a once new and imaginative simile, like herding cats. And yet, when it is done well, the Airfix M3 hull awards laurels modern kits can’t confer.

Next time – engine deck detail.

James Russell · Posted: Tue 09 Dec 2008 22:54 pm Post subject:

Desert War enthusiasts! Offer your wisdom, please.

Here's a question: What tranfers shall I use? I'll have a Grant I with squared off sandshields. No muzzle counterweight. I'd be pleased to portray a tank from Gazala to El Alamein. I'd prefer red Arm of Service flashes - I've seen "40" and "86" in photographs. I guess the easiest way to get a 7th Armoured formation flash would be from the Airfix Bren Carrier, but I don't necessarily need a 7th Armoured vehicle. I'd need squadron signs.
I won't need a yellow bridging circle or air identification RAF roundel. Finally, War Department census numbers. I've seen "T26 . . . ” "T25 . . . " Am I right in what I have said above? What do you reckon? What Airfix kits could I borrow from?

DavidM · Posted: Wed 10 Dec 2008 11:03 am Post subject:

You might be able to get away with minimal markings, this front view of the same 4 County of London Yeomanry I posted earlier in this thread doesnt show much in the way of markings

http://www.ksymuseum.org.uk/picture/100580.jpg

While this tank, also of 4 CLY, shows the camouflage painter wasn't too worried about painting over the WD number

http://www.ksymuseum.org.uk/picture/100579.jpg

David
_________________
David Maynard. 1962-2009. Gone too soon but not forgotten.