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 Post subject: T-34/85 tank
PostPosted: Fri 24 Dec 2010 18:56 pm 
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If you're ever in Berlin, the Capitulation Museum is worth a visit. It's a little out of town at Karlshorst, near the S-bahn station. The actual building is where the final surrender of Nazi Germany took place and is full of interesting artifacts and exhibits. Outside, there is a T-34 to the front of the site and a collection of armour and towed artillery to the rear. (I can post pics if anyone is interested). and, oh yes. ENTERENCE IS FREE!
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PostPosted: Thu 13 Jan 2011 12:57 pm 
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Excellent pics D Z.  I spent 4 years in Berlin before the Wall came down and recall there were two T34s as part of the Soviet War Memorial next to the Reichstag and also there wasa T34/85 on their side of Checkpoint Bravo as you entered the city from Helmstedt.  I recall seeing a King Tiger in a scrap merchants once ...you never have a camera when you need one....

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PostPosted: Sat 15 Jan 2011 18:03 pm 
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Thanks for the kind words Mr Tank! I do have some photos of the t-34/76's on the Tiergarten memorial, but they are lost somewhere in the tame black hole I use as a filing system! The capitulation museum also has an IS-2, ISU-122 and several field guns layed out at the rear. (I'll try to find some shots).
A King Tiger in a scrap yard? Arrrgh! Thank the Lord for camera phones nowadays!


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PostPosted: Sat 15 Jan 2011 18:51 pm 
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Hi DZ.  I will see if I can dig out pics from the Tiergarten.  Only the military used to be allowed to drive up to the Brandenberg Gate on the West side and the Soviet War Memorial was next to the BG.  It was a fleeting glimpse of the King Tiger and it was in a bit of a state but no doubt could have been rebuilt.  However, for obvious reasons the Berliners were keen to put 1939-1945 behind them....

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PostPosted: Mon 17 Jan 2011 19:34 pm 
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A fair point, well made about the Berliners' attitude to the war.
As an aside, I was told in all seriousness by a friendly Berlin policeman that the two T-34's on the Tiergarten memorial were the first Red Army tanks to enter Berlin. I digested this highly dubious information with much nodding and polite noises. I stand to be corrected on this one, but i've never heard or seen evidence of any 76mm armed T-34's involved in the battle for Berlin, especially as one of the duo looks to be Heinz's 58th variety, what with its mismatched road wheels and all. A pair of war-weary scrappers 'stuffed and mounted' seems to be a much more likely occurance....  [/quote]


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PostPosted: Mon 17 Jan 2011 21:30 pm 
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Hi DZ.  I must have met the same Policeman!!  Rumour has it that dead crews were sealed up inside.....probably as likely as them being the first Soviet tanks into Berlin...

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PostPosted: Tue 18 Jan 2011 02:43 am 
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Dalek Zeg:290892 wrote:
I stand to be corrected on this one, but i've never heard or seen evidence of any 76mm armed T-34's involved in the battle for Berlin


I'm pretty sure that I saw a photo of one (well, the caption said it was Berlin) in one of my reference books just the other day.  Certainly there were many thousands of them still in active service at the time, I don't know of any reason why they wouldn't be in Berlin.

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PostPosted: Tue 18 Jan 2011 13:11 pm 
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You are right Bruce.  There would still be lots of T34/76 about during the battle for Berlin.  But given the heat of battle and general confusion it would be imposssible to say which was actually THE first tank into Berlin.  More accurate to say they were amongst amongst the first into Berlin perhaps??

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PostPosted: Wed 19 Jan 2011 01:10 am 
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Tom Tank:291133 wrote:
But given the heat of battle and general confusion it would be imposssible to say which was actually THE first tank into Berlin.  More accurate to say they were amongst amongst the first into Berlin perhaps??


Well yes and no.  There would have been fierce competition amongst the Soviet units for whoever could claim they got there first.  Remember Stalin was whipping the generals, who would have been whipping their subordinates, who would have been whipping their subordinates ... I dare-say it would have been a matter of public record which unit(s) "officially" got the gong as "being the first into Berlin".

Whether the tanks being referred to above actually were the tanks that got the "gong" would be another matter entirely!

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PostPosted: Wed 19 Jan 2011 19:09 pm 
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I knew my contentious remark would come back to haunt me!
I suppose the reason i'm sceptical about the provanence of those two tanks is because, logically, any commander under pressure to bring back measurable results to STAVKA and "The Boss" would probably pick his heaver assets for the initial assault phase on Berlin, especially as it would be reasonably expected that the "Lair of the fascist beast" would be defended heavily indeed. Most documentary evidence seems to back this up, with a preponderance of heavy assault guns, IS-2 and T-34/85 being to the fore. I have no doubt  that T-34/76's were used during the battle, but leading the charge? Hmm
Of course you could argue that a pressurised commander might throw everything he had against the German defences, in the hope of forcing a breakthrough. It's just possible that while the bigger guns were slugging it out against heavily dug in defenders, a second line unit equipped with T-34/76 might have pipped them to the post. Given the confusion of urban warfare, anything is possible.
One myth that [/i]can[i] be put to bed, is that the tanks contain war dead. It was while I was peering through a vision slot on one of them, that I came to the attention of the policeman in question!


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PostPosted: Wed 19 Jan 2011 21:05 pm 
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Dalek Zeg:291525 wrote:
Most documentary evidence seems to back this up, with a preponderance of heavy assault guns, IS-2 and T-34/85 being to the fore.


Of course most of that "documentary evidence" was propaganda footage, designed to impress anyone watching (particularly Westerners) more than it was designed for an accurate historical record.  And of course the assault on Berlin was an enormous exercise, there would have been more going on that was never filmed at all.  The available footage is very interesting but it doesn't "prove" anything one way or the other.

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PostPosted: Wed 19 Jan 2011 21:09 pm 
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Nothing wrong with a bit of lively debate!!  I'm with you DZ as by April 1945 the majority of tanks in the Soviet arsenal would have been T34/85, JS 2 and various Assault Guns like the JSU152 etc.  No doubt that there would be T34/76 there but I suggest in a minority and statistically it is unlikely that the first tanks into Berlin would have been the early version of the T34.  Truth is I doubt even those there would be aware that they were first in to the city.  For what it is worth a totally random "Google" search of images from Berlin in 1945 showed plenty of big guns in the city but no T34/76.  Totally unsciencetific I agree but perhaps an indication.

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PostPosted: Sat 22 Jan 2011 19:15 pm 
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Lively indeed Tom Tank! I think we have the ATF equivalent of the 'Who was Jack the ripper' debates going on. What's great is that it's all guesswork on our parts and anyone could be correct..
BWP; Point taken about the reliability of photos from the battle. The Soviets were masters of exploiting propaganda value- witness how soon they rustled up IS-3's for the Berlin victory parade!
At the risk of sounding 'right-on', while it's fun to bounce theories off one another, perhaps we are ALL guilty of forgetting slightly the point of those two tanks up on the plinths.


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PostPosted: Tue 25 Jan 2011 13:00 pm 
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Good point DZ.  Military modelling is a fascinating hobby and if it leads on to a study of what really happened and hence an understanding of how terrible War is, then that is not a bad thing.  Lest we forget - and all that.

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PostPosted: Sun 23 Sep 2012 20:22 pm 
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some more of T34/85, this one at the Tank Museum Bovington
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PostPosted: Sun 23 Sep 2012 21:13 pm 
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FWIW, this graphic says something about the previous discussion re: T34/76 presence in 1945.

The solid black line is total Red Army tanks in service, the red line is T-34/76 Model 1943 (i.e. some, but by no means all, of the surviving 76mm types), and the X axis is month of the war on the eastern front.

You can see that there were 14,000 Russian tanks in service at war's end, of which around 10% were one vintage of 76mm T-34. There may have been more - Model 1942, 1941 etc.

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PostPosted: Tue 25 Sep 2012 11:33 am 
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T34 at the Kremlin at Nizhny Novgorod.


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 Post subject: Re: T-34/85 tank
PostPosted: Wed 20 Feb 2013 02:18 am 
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 Post subject: Re: T-34/85 tank
PostPosted: Wed 27 Feb 2013 22:26 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: T-34/85 tank
PostPosted: Thu 18 Jul 2013 02:09 am 
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