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 Post subject: The Caunter Scheme
PostPosted: Sun 11 Sep 2011 10:51 am 
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I am building the Airfix Quad combination and want to finish it in the Caunter scheme. I am having difficulty finding information on what units may have used them in Africa in Caunter. My research so far shows that likely the 4th Royal Horse Artillery would have had Quads in this scheme as part of the 7th Armd. Div. but I can't find what AOS number (unit serial number) they would have carried at that time.
Does anybody know what that number might be?

Thanks for any assistance.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon 12 Sep 2011 21:53 pm 
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My thanks to Mike Starmer who provided the info I needed through an e-mail exchange.

Cheers,

Neil


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PostPosted: Wed 05 Sep 2012 16:03 pm 
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I always thought the Matilda had a 3 tone splinter camo that included light blue. I remember the old Matilda Airfix kit.
Then I came across a thread on WOT forum.

Image

"That's called Caunter camo. And the colours in that pic are off. The Blue all comes from a printing mistake in the 60's or 70's by airfx, on their Matilda II kit. They put the wrong Humbrol code in the instructions. For some reason that colour has stuck."

Is this true? If yes is this a case of the model world influencing the real? :-)


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PostPosted: Wed 05 Sep 2012 16:08 pm 
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DogTailRed2:474780 wrote:
"That's called Caunter camo. And the colours in that pic are off. The Blue all comes from a printing mistake in the 60's or 70's by airfx, on their Matilda II kit. They put the wrong Humbrol code in the instructions. For some reason that colour has stuck."

Is this true? If yes is this a case of the model world influencing the real? :-)

It's Caunter Camouflage pattern, yes.
The confusion comes because of the names of the paints, and their interpretation. "Silver Grey", for example, is a colour similar to RAF Sky green. Xtracolour and White Ensign Models Colourcoats have Caunter colours in their range, and MAFVA probably has the "correct" mixes (see "Middle East 1940-41").

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PostPosted: Wed 05 Sep 2012 16:49 pm 
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Hopefully Mike S. will pop in and point you in the right direction.  :idea:

I've edited the thread title to (hopefully) attract his attention.  :idea:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed 05 Sep 2012 19:55 pm 
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Khaki Green No. 3/ G3/ “Service Colour” This is specified as alternative dark tone in Middle East ‘Caunter’ scheme.  Used in this scheme the colour assumes a definite ‘chocolate brown’ hue.  Description:  This is a dark rich brown looking yellow–green.  Higher contrast with G5 and much less so with Dark Green G4.

Slate No.34 a.k.a. dark slate. In use:  1940 – 42 Middle East as dark shade in Caunter scheme and then a disruptive colour over Light Stone No.61.  Description:  A darkish dull grey-green.

Silver Grey No. 28 In Use:  Caunter scheme in M.E. and as disruptive colour for a period. Description:  Neither silver nor grey but a medium yellow-green, fades to blue-grey in extreme.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed 05 Sep 2012 22:28 pm 
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There is an excellent article on Caunter in the IPMS mag a couple of issues back (out around May).  It includes a history of the scheme and recomended mixes.  Drop me a PM if you would like more info.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu 06 Sep 2012 09:20 am 
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In a nutshell, is that picture showing the wrong colours. Is the blue `wrong`?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu 06 Sep 2012 13:11 pm 
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DogTailRed2:475077 wrote:
In a nutshell, is that picture showing the wrong colours. Is the blue `wrong`?


Yes it is.

Though it is pleasing to the eye and I have painted caunter camouflage in blue just because I like that shade of blue.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu 06 Sep 2012 13:21 pm 
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DogTailRed2:475077 wrote:
In a nutshell, is that picture showing the wrong colours. Is the blue `wrong`?

Who are you building for  :?:
If yourself, does it bother you  :Whistling:
If someone else, will it bother them / will they notice  :geek:
If for a competition, will the judge know  :airhead:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu 06 Sep 2012 15:51 pm 
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Ratch:475118 wrote:
If for a competition, will the judge know  :airhead:

In a competition, the judges don't take colours into account unless they're grossly wrong. The finish is what they look for - runs, pools, orange peel, brush marks. If the instructions say to use Hu:25 and that's what you've used - fair game.

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PostPosted: Thu 06 Sep 2012 16:31 pm 
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Brews:475152 wrote:
The finish is what they look for - runs, pools, orange peel, brush marks.

Interesting you should say that Bruce. I was asked to Judge at the Yate show, but declined as I would merely have chosen the one I liked best  :dummy:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu 06 Sep 2012 22:31 pm 
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Brews:475152 wrote:
Ratch:475118 wrote:
If for a competition, will the judge know  :airhead:

In a competition, the judges don't take colours into account unless they're grossly wrong. The finish is what they look for - runs, pools, orange peel, brush marks. If the instructions say to use Hu:25 and that's what you've used - fair game.


Absolutely true.  Though in points style judging like AMPS the model does loose points a bad color match and will gain points if the modeler put in the effort to authenticate the scheme and colors.

IPMS judging a lime green Soviet T-80 will win best armor.

But if not building for competition that blue is a very nice color.  I remember doing Bronze Green and Azure Blue over Light Stone back in the day.  :roll:   Totally wrong, but it looked nice.  Then I started doing Slate Grey, Light Grey over Light Stone and I received a commission to do a gaming brigade of Matildas and Valentines in those colors even though we both knew it was wrong.  :twisted:

It looked great on the gaming table.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun 23 Sep 2012 20:08 pm 
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The blue is completely wrong. And for that matter so is the pattern on that Bovvy tank and all of the kit instructions too. The correct pattern was promulgated in MTP 10, 1941 by GHQME and shown on an A9 cruiser. That design had to be adapted to fit a Matilda. My recent research has found three basic versions of the design on Matildas. So to be pedantic one should copy a picture but since these all of side views or poor front views that show little pattern due to dust much of the rest has been guessed by artists and modellers.


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PostPosted: Mon 11 Nov 2013 22:29 pm 
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Finally getting around to my desert one of these, and I must confess I'm finding it hard to tell the difference between the light olive and the khaki drab in the red box painting instructions. Both the camo patches on the left and right sides of the turret appear to be the same colour, which I think is the light olive.
Does that mean that the raised areas at the front of each sponson are both khaki drab, or are they black?
I know I have red/brown colour blindness, but this particular combo seems to be giving me real difficulties, assistance would be appreciated!

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PostPosted: Tue 12 Nov 2013 03:03 am 
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I presume you mean this scheme :idea:
Threads merged :smt024:

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PostPosted: Thu 14 Nov 2013 21:33 pm 
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There is no olive green nor khaki drab in Caunter patterning. The darkest colour was Slate BS.34, a darkish grey-green shade. The intermediate tone was Silver Grey BS.28 and the basic colour, that is everything else, is either Light Stone BS.61 or Portland Stone BS.64. Both sides of the turret were painted the same, whichever pattern variation was applied. What is less obvious is the Silver grey triangle on the front of the hull which extends onto the turret and almost totally unseen on the rear decking is that all three colours come together at a single point offset slightly right of centre on the lower edge of the rear hull plate. The fuel container is not usually included in the pattern although I found just one picture that shows it. What all of the museum exhibits, kit instructions and modellers miss entirely is a central stripe of Silver Grey from that rear edge that runs up the back of the turret, over the top and ends at a point at the front edge of the turret where it meets the Slate band. It is difficult to explain in words, one really should see the drawings. If you are sufficiently interested in getting you model correct then e-mail me. However there are three variations of pattern and to send the correct one I will need to know which particular Matilda you intend to represent.


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PostPosted: Fri 15 Nov 2013 12:29 pm 
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Interesting discussion but I am still confused. Can anybody show a picture of how a Matilda in a Caunter dress should look please?
Erik

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PostPosted: Fri 15 Nov 2013 12:44 pm 
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ejk wrote:
Can anybody show a picture of how a Matilda in a Caunter dress should look please?
Erik

Yes please :pray:
Even pictures of the new Tamiya Matilda 1:48 looks like they used the German RLM 76.

Jesper.

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PostPosted: Fri 15 Nov 2013 17:01 pm 
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Buy Mr. Starmer's book. It contains the answers to all questions... well, almost all. :wink:

https://www.whiteensignmodels.com/c/Mik ... des/299/1/

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