Cookie

T16S

Okay so for those who are ignorant or American- to avoid confusion what is a cookie? This much I know is that it was a rather large bomb full of incendiaries that blew up and spread lots of little bombs made of phosphorus over a large area that burnt uncontrollably. A sort of early cluster bomb but on a massive scale- one per Lancaster I think was the load. What did a cookie look like?
cheers Stuart

Sgt.Squarehead

It's the whacking great drum-like thing in these pictures:

http://www.lancastermuseum.ca/photos/p_ferguson8.jpg

http://history.sandiego.edu/cdr2/WW2Pics2/82924.jpg

HTH & All the best
Sgt.S

Loll

Lincolnlanc · Cookie

Actually a 'cookie' was a cylinderical shaped 8,000lb bomb filled with explosives and was design to blast open property so incendaries could burn the place. Bolting on a 'section' produced a 12,000lb bomb
Incendaries were packed into containers known as S.B.C.'s

Sorry about the 'lesson' but just wanted to get it right for future modellers.

PS Sorry Loll, seems you got in there just B4 me.

feanor

Ayup All...

Expolsive Baked Bean cans....

Loll · Re: Cookie

Airfixfan

Hi folks,

Someone got a pic or knows one of the incendiaries? They were the things my parents were really afraid of; HEs had no defense so they didn't worry about them. They always had buckets of sand on the attic and around the house. To his dying day, my dad was afraid of fire in the attic.

Gerry, that second pic is a beauty. I love the buildings and background even better than the 'improved' tractor. Great photography and scenery!

BTW, I have a second hand Stirling but without the tractor, trolleys and bombs. Any in the offering?

Loll

Airfixfan

Great, thanks. Small detail: The Germans did not bomb us, the Allies did.
So please, same question for British incendiaries.

From what my folks told me, they looked a lot like the German ones. They described them as six-edged sticks.
But how were they transported? In a bigger bomb, or just as a bundle of sticks?

Sgt.Squarehead

Loll

Lincolnlanc · Incendaries - SBC's

Early style incendaries were like the German version and dropped in bundles/clusters by Wellingtons, once in the slipstream they broke free of the bundle to seperate and fall over widespread area.
I believe Halifax/Stirling bombers carried them in the wing root adjacent to the fuselarge. Lancasters carried them in Small Bomb Containers, (S.B.C.) and usual tactic was first wave to go in with H.E. and cookies followed by another wave carrying mixed load(s) with incendaries.
An article in Scale Aircraft Modelling April '95 show SBC being fitted into a conversion model of a Lanc Mk. X.

PS Naplam was not used by the RAF during WWII, i believe P51 carried such for low-level strikes but more common during Vietham.

"Well chaps ... my watch says its time to go .."

Ratch

Try

incendiary
&
fuselage

Wouldn't the Pathfinders have dropped incendiaries to light the way

tanker221

Not sure about other uses but the US Navy & Marines used napalm in the Pacific to good effect . I was told by an old pilot that it was one of the only dropped weapons that could get to the Japanese hunkered down in caves .

KIWI

I believe the two "boxes" on the ground either side of the cookie , in Sgt's second picture , are incendiarys .

Loll

Loll

Lincolnlanc · More Info

SBC's ('boxes') were not dropped, Incendaries fell from them.
PFF flares:
some on parachutes whilst others were 500lb bomb that had pressure related charges/fuse that detonated at pre-determined heights. The 'Pink Pansie' was an 8,000 lb TI (Target Indicator) that exploded on the ground with its vivid colour. Would be loaded on tractor trailer in same way as HE so could be modelled behind Airfix tractor/bomb trollies in same dio.

Photograph from my personal collection show Incendaries being delivered unloaded from either K2 4w flat with trailer or K6 at RAF BInbrook. F/sgt on the right is my Ex's father when he was stationed there.

Ratch

Great pic Ian

thanks for sharing

T16S

What a wonderful amount of good information there is out there in your heads and no doubt books! I had no idea when I posed the original question it would develop so much- well done everybody. For anyone wanting to get a feel of those times I recommend the book Bomber by Len Deighton and also his Fighter on the Battle of Britain. He talks about cookies in Bomber and of course they caused firestorms that were so huge they would suck people into them by the force of the air rushing in to feed the fires- 150mph+ winds. I think that's what happened in Dresden. The same thing happened in Japan but possibly on an even larger scale. to the extent that more people were killed in one attack than were with the Atomic bombs. Totally horrific!
Well done all of you- these things should not be forgotten.
Cheers Stuart

XN923

IIRC the standard 'Cookie' was 4,000lb and the 'double Cookie' was 8,000lb

The RAF started out the war with HE bombs which had quite heavy streamlined casing and therefore a lower proportion of explosive per weight of bomb. It was found that against 'soft' targets this was relatively ineffective, and as bombs were increasingly being carried internally, the streamlining was less relevant. Interestingly the Germans came to the same conclusion during the latter stages of the Blitz when stocks of standard bombs began to run low so anti-ship mines were used instead. It appeared that the mines actually caused more damage because of their thinner casing.

The Cookie family of bombs was the logical conclusion of this policy - no streamlining at all, the lightest possible casing and the maximum possible explosive. The likes of the Grand Slam and Tallboy were at the opposite end of the spectrum, with the shaping and weight of casing responsible for a large part of the damage done due to punching into the target at very high speed, as well as being accurate enough to hit a specific target. The Cookie didn't need to do this - everything it 'hurt' was on the surface, no need to penetrate any armour or concrete, and it didn't need to be too accurate as being dropped over large targets (usually cities) it had a high chance of hitting roughly where it was needed to.

hewman100

There is a fantastic wartime film I've got on one of my IWM DVDs.

It goes through the process of re-arming a Wellington bomber and follows the bombs and ammunition from the dumps and armouries to the aircraft.

It shows quite clearly the loading of 4lb incendaries into SBCs. They were hexagonal in shape to utilise as much space in the container as possible.

The 12000lb HE bomb was three casings and not many of these were made as the Wallis alternatives came in. The 4000 and 8000 were deemed adequate.

Airfixfan

You got in there before me Stuart, thanks. You saved me some writing. I completely agree with what you say.

Well done everybody, many thanks, especially for the pictures; Lincolnlanc most of all for the personal share.
And as for me, keep it coming. I'm the learning type because, as Stuart wrote:
"Totally horrific! .. - these things should not be forgotten."

T16S

thanks airfixfan,
As to not be forgotten- I heard today that phosphorus bombs have been used in Gaza and one casualty reportedly is in hospital with the nasty stuff still burning his flesh uncontrollably! Do we never learn except how to kill each other more efficiently and in this case horribly. Sorry if I've brought current politics into this and I know this is really against the forum rules. Yet I will try keep my personal opinions to myself- except to observe the above.
Thank God the Israelis have declared a ceasefire!
Stuart

Sgt.Squarehead

While I'm sure that we all have burning opinions regarding the rights and wrongs of the current 'Gaza Conflict', the ATF is most definitely not the place to discuss them!

All the best
Sgt.S

tanker221

Never played with phosphorous but when i was a young airman i had a roomie that worked in the flightline machine shop . They had a magnesium flare that they somehow cut open .For giggles & grins they took some small chunks or shavings (cant remember which) of the magnesium and put it in a 1/4" thick steel pipe end cap and lit it off . Needless to say it was a very bright fire and it burned completely through the cap and the steel welding bench it was sitting on . Only by burying it in sand could we eventually get it to go out . They had some explaining to do when the shop chief came in the next morning .Luckily it was a very small ,containable burn .

T16S

Phosphorous in its most common form comes in the red sort- matches to set fire to things. Not those safety types but the good old fashioned things that once ignited cannot be easily put out. I remember a friend using one of those flimsy match books he got free from a disco to light a ciggie and a bit flew off on to the side of his nose an kept on burning. He was in agony! The result was not nice. Another victim had a box of matches in his back pocket but fell and the whole lot went up (burnt nether regions)! That's why we now have SAFETY MATCHES!
So that is how a cookie worked once ignited it cannot be easily extinguished- I think if you could immerse it in the right sort of oil it would possibly stop.
Stuart

Lincolnlanc

The only method of extinguishing the phosphorous bomb was with sand. Exposure to air/oxygen kept it 'alive'.

Airfixfan

So they were phosphor, right? That's what my parents told us too, including the "only extinguish with sand" bit. It was on all sort of posters from the war too; Helmond Castle museum once had a few on exhibit in a big WWII propaganda-posters show.

As for magnesium, we had some fun on New Year's Eve. That's people's fireworks day in the Netherlands. After we had gone through most of the bangs and flares, we decided to clean up our corner of the street by lighting a small bonfire with the leftover boxes and other packaging stuff. All very controlled, three adults (me one) supervising. Great fun for the kids.
Two guys come down the block, one burly Germanic Dutchman of the 6'-plus type and another feisty little one. The big one stamps out the fire, yelling at the kids and calling them all sort of names, finally asking who's the idiot that did that? "Well sir, that would be me," I came forward.
More invectives and then "Would I like a fine?" The guys were undercover cops!
"Sure, I said, behave like oxen and start calling names, then write me a ticket: The judge will love it." This to the little one; the big one was just too fascinated with stomping on the fire with his silent rubber-sole cop shoes.
Behind his back, one of the kids throws what they call a "light-maker," a little disc with a fuze that burns in a bright white light you cannot look into. Guess what that is? Mr. Big Cop sees it, of course, such a bright white star, and stamps on it, too
Magnesium or, more precise, magnesium-oxide ( that is what a light-maker is ) burns without extraneous oxygen, and very, very hot. Like tanker221 wrote. Like I said, we had a lot of fun.

One non-political conjecture on "Gaza": phosphorous as a weapon seems unlikely. It is mostly used for target/non-target marking. More likely the cause of wounds seen by Norwegian doctors was a "thermobaric" or "fuel-oxygen" device. RPG-7s and RPG-29s have new ammunitions with a thermobaric warhead. The USA uses same in their M-1 Abrams cannons. It also powers the "Daisy-cutters," which look similar to the WWII 'cookies' - just a big barrel, basically, dropped by parachute, usually from cargo planes, not bombers, because of their size. Something for a C-130 diorama, anyone?

Airfixfan

Afterthought:

Yes, war is gruesome. Military modelers are some of the people well informed on the subject, as are the victims and soldiers actually on both ends of the stuff of war. Often, modelers are or were soldiers.

There is a plethora of fora our there where we can get political if we are so inclined. Because we know a bit more than non-modelers, it might even be a good idea to bring some of our knowledge to the frenzied and often misinformed political fora, to put some oil on the waves. But do let's keep our discussions here on models and their 1/1 scale subjects, on looks and technicalities - Avoid politics here, please.

Please, do not reply to this statement and hijack the thread. I will remove it immediately if anyone thinks that's better and my former bit can be amended as well for the same reason. Let me know by direct email, vinz52 at hotmail.com
e-mail addy changed for security

Sgt.Squarehead

Your thoughts match my own Vinz!

Right, now, let's get back to the bombs!

Does anyone have pictures of the bombs, rockets (and their respective mounts) that were fitted to the Yak-9?

TIA & All the best
Sgt.S

Airfixfan

Thanks for changing the email addy, Mr. Moderator. I'd have never thought of that.

As for the Yak-9, I found some info

http://wikipedia.ketsujin.com/index.php/Yakovlev_Yak-9U

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/christophe.arribat/stofyak9.html

Maybe not exactly the pics you wanted, but at least some on the bomb load. I was surprised to learn that this ship had an internal bomb bay! (Second link, under 'development.')

Airfixfan

Quite a bit of extraneous stuff removed, back to the Yak-9 then:

http://www.russianaeros.com/Yakdrwg.htm
Good drawing, but no bomb racks in sight.

http://www.warbirdalley.com/yak9.htm
" Armament:
One engine-mounted 20-mm MP-20 cannon;
Two 12.7-mm (0.5-inch) UBS machine guns;
Two 220-pound bombs on underwing racks"

For more, why not ask Yakovlev? Russian companies are often willing to help modelers:
http://www.yak.ru/ENG/FIRM/HISTMOD/yak-9.php

Airfixfan

Found another mention of the ICM model in a review of the Valom Yak-7 kit, and that one comes with sprue pics:

http://www.internetmodeler.com/2008/april/first-looks/valom_yak.php

Looks OK: choices of cockpits, etched fret, some other very tiny parts in I don't know what material, color description. If ICM is anything like that (it says Valom's is based on ICM's) it should be something. Hope this helps ya! I keep looking.

And so I went to the source, ICM. Here is their catalogue:
http://www.icm.com.ua/katalog_en.pdf
but there is no Yak-9 in it!

KIWI

A good book on British air dropped weapons is "Bombs Gone" by W/C J A MacBean and Major A S Hogben , published by PSL .

hewman100

I've got a copy somewhere.......

T16S

Hi guys,
surfing the web I came across a U tube video of a Lanc- I think being armed with what looked like a cookie. The bomb trolley looked interesting. Unfortunately I didn't note the refs for it- yet I'm sure those interested will easily find it.
cheers Stuart

hewman100

Probably a 'Type D':

http://home.clara.net/djparkins/f...h/fp72_raf_type_d4000_trolley.htm

Although if it was a 8000 or 12000lber it would have been a Type H like rthis but without the extra bits. Look at the instructions to see what I'm getting at:

http://www.belcherbits.com/lines/172conv/bl7.htm

Airfixfan

Come on, Stu, give us the link.

Here a link to "small bomb containers" for incendiaries (1/72 model)

http://www.belcherbits.com/lines/172conv/bl5.htm

Belcher Bits have more interesting stuff; check it out. Here e.g. is a variety of cookies!

http://www.belcherbits.com/lines/172conv/bl2.htm

Loll

Loll

I was lucky enough to see a clip of a Lancaster today, dropping it's bomb load. Bombs first, incendiaries coming out like confetti, then the 'beer can' ! It's a wonder any of the incendiaries landed near the target.

T16S

Hi Guys
I looked back on the history of my surfing- it started with a feed about a raid on Tirpitz- yet when I revisited I couldn't find the video I saw and as it was mainly about big bombs like tallboys and grand slams- I now guess it was not a cookie I saw - DOH!!! I'm getting old and the old brain's hard drive is filling up- too much junk in there! Yet it was very interesting and extremely large! I wonder if they used the same bomb trailers for cookies and grand slams? I remember seeing a programme in which some RAF guys compared a B17 to a Lanc and said the B17 bombay was tiny but you could get a London bus in a Lanc's bombay!

Just to get things cooking again as I seem to have unintentionally diverted this thread a bit (excuse bad pun) what about Tallboys and Grand Slams- if I've got the names right- possibly not- wake up brain! Barnes Wallis was the designer and the biggest- grand slam- was called the earthquake bomb because it was designed to deep penetrate into the ground before it exploded (100 feet). The effect was to liquify the surrounding earth and any structure above simply fell down.
Okay now I'm waiting for you wise guys out there who know much more to give chapter and verse.
cheers Stuart

Loll

Tallboy : 12,000 lbs 21' long overall
Grand Slam : 22,000 lbs 26'6" overall

The fins were about 1/2 the total length, and angled to spin the two bombs like a rifle bullet, so that they were more stable and thus accurate (within 50' at best from 25,000'), drilling into the ground to create a mini earthquake effect. It could penetrate 16' of reinforced concrete before exploding, hitting the ground at supersonic speed, it would explode before they heard it coming, just like a V2.

Lancaster bomb bay 33' long.
This bomb bay was most usefull because it was one huge open space with no dividers, so it was more adaptable than other bombers. Originally rated at 4,000 lbs load.

Ultimate maximum load carried by a Lancaster was over 24,000 lbs but only limited range. Certainly not anywhere as far as Berlin.

B17 rated as 4,000 lbs normal load. For longer distances the load would drop to around 2,500 lbs.

Incidentally the Mosquito was rated as 4,000 lbs usefull load, ie 1 'Cookie'

T16S

Thanks Loll- that's exactly the sort of information I hoped would appear from someone.
Until about 20 years ago a Lanc stood at the gates of RAF Scampston near Lincoln with examples of these bombs- they looked large enough and were laid on the ground next to it. Then the Lanc disappeared and was eventually replaced by a Harrier I think. Can't remember if the bombs went too- I assume they did. Haven't been past there in a long while so I don't know what may be there now. I wonder where the Lanc ended up? I think the base was closed a while back. I remember seeing the Red Arrows regularly cruising past when I was working up the top of scaffolding on the west front of Lincoln Cathedral- from there I got quite a different sort of side on viewpoint!
cheers Stuart

Airfixfan

There was a site called "Man made earthquakes" that had lots of info on the subject.
It seems to be gone now.
I have some pics I downloaded from there.
Would it be ethical to post them here? (Copyright and all that)
And if so, how do I add a pic in a post?

Lincolnlanc

Stuart
The Lancaster was bought by the Panton brother and now resides at East Kirkby air museum. Better known as 'Just Jane'.
Many years ago there was a Grand Slam at Lindholme by the guard room but it too disappeared, one hopes to a reputable museum.
Ian

hewman100

Yep, she is currently in taxiable condition and there has been talk in the past of taking the final step.

They have examples of 'Upkeep' and 'Tallboy' at the BBMF Visitor Centre at Coningsby. I can't remember if they've got a 'Gland Slam'. could these be those that used to reside at Scampton?

Lincolnlanc · Grand Slam

Located about 3 miles from me and residing in the dis-used village railway yard is this beaut .....

Photo from the wood fence side gives an idea of size(?), it being approx. 6ft.
Took these pics this morning, its been there for years and thought its about time i got the pics ...

"Well chaps ... my watch says it time to go ..."

Loll · Re: Grand Slam

Ratch

Airfixfan

Thanks Ratch, I thought so. But what if, like in this case, I cannot find the creator of the website any longer because it is gone, nor the copyright holder(s)? It's the first time I encounter a situation like this, so thanks for the advice.
My normal practice is to post a link and give everyone his due credit, so I fear that in this case posting remains out of the question. And rightly so.

Sorry, chaps!

Loll

That leaves you two options:
1) forget it.
2) Apply a prominent label to the effect that you acknowledge that the owner of the picture has the copyright but you have been unable to discover who. Therefore if the owner sees it would they get in touch and if required it will be removed speedily. I don't think anyone could reasonably object to that, unless you were to be using it for financial gain elsewhere. This is quite normal in such situations, by applying the note prominently, and making no financial gain, you are in fact complying with the rights of copyright.
(Now if only students would do the same there might be less red pen on their marked work ! )

Ratch

Posting it as a link is fine

Loll

hewman100

I'll have to sort out some photos of some of my Flightpath and Belcher ordnance to put up in the gallery.

Lincolnlanc

Can you buy the Belcher bits from a supplier in this country??

thomasweir

Airfixfan

Loll, thanks for the advice from Wed 04 Feb 2009 08:52 am.
I'll see what I can do.

Lincolnlanc

Thanks for that THOMASWEIR .. just what i needed.

T16S

Thanks Guys
for solving what happened to the Lanc at Scampston- can't believe it was sold! I found the movie I saw on U tube- it's called Grand Slam Bomb! It's seems be a Pathe News extract and shows a bomb being towed on a trolley and being loaded. Plus the effects on a viaduct!

There is also Sink the Tirpitz to check out which describes how Tallboys were used to kill the sister of the Bismarck. Part 7 is the one!
cheers Stuart

Lincolnlanc · 'Cookie'

Thought i would drop this one in to give a scale to the bomb and men/aircraft. From my collection, its shows an Australian 'nav' after completion of his 'tour' and the aircraft he flew in HW-Q.

Click to see full size image

"Well chaps ... my watch says its time to go .. "

ted angus

Loll

A nice little detail in that photo, the bomb/cookie trolly has the squadron code letters on it.

irmurray · Re: Grand Slam

Lincolnlanc

I dont have the exact OS reference but its location is at the roadside to what was the Tetney railway crossing on the track from Grimsby to Louth line here in Lincolnshire and about 1 mile from former RAF Station Grimsby.

KIWI

For many years there were two large bombs on display at the gate of an RAF airfield . Not so long ago the area was being redeveloped and the bombs needed to be moved . It was only then that it was discover that these bombs were in fact not just empty casings and were still full of explosives . I think they were a Tall Boy and Grand Slam

Loll

strider4142

I know a photo of one of these cookies being loaded on a mossie

the bomb had "happy birthday adolf" written on the side

Cheers, Strider

Cookie

Re: Cookie

Incendaries - SBC's

More Info

Grand Slam

Re: Grand Slam

'Cookie'

Re: Grand Slam