Archive for - The Airfix Tribute Forum - The Airfix Tribute Forum was established in April 2006 to discuss the making of Airfix models. Email: admin at airfixtributeforum.co.uk          - The Airfix Tribute Forum - Forum Index -> Ships and Boats Steven Pietrobon Capital Ship - Scale Poll As there has been some discussion about which scale Airfix should make new ships in, let's have a poll. I'll restrict the class of ships to destroyers, cruisers, battleships, carriers and liners, since 1/72 or 1/144 already are popular with smaller ships. You can vote for more than one scale. sloop I voted for 1/600 and 1/350. The way I see it 700 scale would conflict with the 600 scale range whereas 350 scale would not. I think the company should maintain its range of 600 scale and augment their ship range with 350 scale subjects. These are likely, I suppose, to be smaller ships but worthwhile anyway as, in all seriousness, we are unlikely to see any new 600 scale ships. I wish the world had settled on 1200, 600, and 400 scale for ships. Oh well. Ratch Call me a traditonalist    1:600 is the only scale for me   Obi-Jiff Kenobi As much as I like the Airfix 1/600 ships, I voted for the international standards, 1/350 and 1/700. 1/600 is a limited market, with only really Airfix catering for that scale. If they released ships in 1/700, they would have a larger segment of active modellers to buy the kits. DavidH Sloop said it perfectly for me. Stay with 1/600th to compliment the existing range and move to 1/350th for larger scale kits. DavidM 1/350 and 1/700 for me, you know it makes sense   David peebeep DavidM wrote: 1/350 and 1/700 for me, you know it makes sense Ditto, not because I wish for the demise of 1/600, but as a pragmatist I see it as a marketing dead end. peebeep walrus double ditto prefer the 600 scale but 700 opens more doors for Airfix i would have thought- like Obi-Jiff said Sgt.Squarehead I've retitled the thread to make the contents a little clearer.....I know capital ship isn't strictly accurate, but it's the best I could come up with.   All the best Sgt.S  (Who managed to miss the bit about large vessels only and posted an impassioned plea for more 1/72 stuff.....Then had to delete it!   ) VMA131Marine If Airfix were to stick to one scale, I would  prefer 1/600 over 1/700. But, there is no reason why Airfix can't have multiple ship scales. Trumpeter, for example, has released almost all of their ship subjects in both 1/350 and 1/700. Airfix could, and should, do the same. I'd also like to do some of the  smaller ship classes in an even bigger scale; 1/144 Tribal-class destroyer or Flower-class corvette anyone? How about a Vosper MTB and X-Craft mini-sub in 1/35? Brews Airfix could, with very little investment, massively expand their range of 1:600 ships. The clues to this are in all the excellent conversion articles documented in Airfix Magazines through the years. I'm with Ratch 100% wookie Sgt.Squarehead wrote: I've retitled the thread to make the contents a little clearer.....I know capital ship isn't strictly accurate, but it's the best I could come up with.   All the best Sgt.S  (Who managed to miss the bit about large vessels only and posted an impassioned plea for more 1/72 stuff.....Then had to delete it!   ) Correct terminolgy (at least using current doctrinal documents)  should be major warship, which covers everything from Frigate upwards Rgds Spudgun It's 1/600 for me. Everybody else is standardising their scale ships so the companies end up competing with each other. Airfix is known for their 1/600 ships, so why not stick to that scale? Paddy O'Irishman 1/700 has been flogged to death. Tamiya, Dragon, Fujimi etc has just about everything covered in that scale so not much point in producing lots of "Yet Another 1/700 Whatever". Stick with 1/600, where the only real competition are Kangnam, Arii etc, which aren't any competition to Airfix anyway. Go through the existing 1/600 ships and retool the bad ones ( such as Bismarck the abysmal) which shouldn't be too difficult, especially as Airfix like to cycle their kits anyway. Add new 1/600 models with the specific aim of filling the gaps in the various ship groups, such as HMS Exeter to go with  Ajax and  Graff Spee, HMS Renoun to go with Hood and Repulse, Koln or Konisberg  or another Light Cruiser to go with the DKM ships, Titanic to go with the Liner series, and definately Invincible and Hermes to go with the Falklands ships. I wouldn't bother with the loners such as Moskva and Rommel unless they add group specific ships to go with them. (there's plenty of Soviet "Cold War" stuff they could do, but I think Rommel is a dead duck, what else could they realistically put with an early post war German Federal Navy ship).  I firmly believe there is a lot of people who would buy them purely to fill the gaps in the various ship groups, I know I would. Then gradually add new subjects, specifically WW1 "Jutland" and WW2 RN which should sell well in Airfix's primary market,  ie the U.K.  Sure, most of the RN WW2 subjects are available in 1/700, but at 20 to 30 quid a go I've no intention of spending that kind of money on a small scale kit, especially if Airfix can do something similar in 1/600 for around 10 to 15 quid. With 1/350, there is plenty of UK specific subjects not covered by anyone else that they could clean up with. If the new "Harrier Carrier" model sells well, which I see no reason why it wont, I'd love to see (at an appropriate point in time) a 1/350 CV-F, as that is a model that Airfix could make a killing on. With all the publicity the planned QE and PoW are getting, plus the resurgance of "Naval Patriotism" in the UK, I could see that model selling like hot cakes, especially if released around the launch time of the real QE. The UK's first true "Super Carrier", and largest RN Warship ever built is going to generate a hell of a lot of publicity when she launches, so what better time to launch a model of it. DavidM Paddy O'Irishman wrote: 1/700 has been flogged to death. Tamiya, Dragon, Fujimi etc has just about everything covered in that scale so not much point in producing lots of "Yet Another 1/700 Whatever". Not if we're talking Royal Navy ships. There's a huge field just waiting to be exploited in 1/700 - like cruisers of which there's only ever been one in 1/700 and that's OOP. David jhl1908 In 1/600: Some modern Russian ships and a re-release of Moskva would be nice. All the best from jesper. Steven Pietrobon Wow! 18 votes for 1/600 compared to only 4 votes for 1/700. Keep those votes coming in folks! Obi-Jiff Kenobi Interesting. Not the way I thought it would go at all. As I said earlier, I prefer 1/700 to 1/600, but if the market is there, Airfix should do some new 1/600 ships. I'd buy 'em, especially if they did Hermes, Invincible, Sheffield and Atlantic Conveyor. sloop I'd love a 1/600 scale Exeter. And I'd buy just about any new release subject from Airfix in 1/600 scale in bulk. peebeep Steven Pietrobon wrote: Wow! 18 votes for 1/600 compared to only 4 votes for 1/700. Keep those votes coming in folks! Hardly a sample to impress a marketing bod Steven! Especially with the in-built bias on this forum - quite understandable but not particularly representative of the big picture. peebeep tempestfan Paddy O'Irishman wrote: I wouldn't bother with the loners such as Moskva and Rommel unless they add group specific ships to go with them. (there's plenty of Soviet "Cold War" stuff they could do, but I think Rommel is a dead duck, what else could they realistically put with an early post war German Federal Navy ship) Rommel is/was a modified Adams-class ship. I'm not quite sure how much retool it would require, but besically it should be possible to make alternative parts to backdate her to a USN ship - semi-companion to Forrestal, another loner. As a companion, earlier Bundesmarine ship, what would be more suited than Z1 and her sisters, which were modernised Fletchers. Again, I've no idea how extensive the mods were, but I think with good planning it would be feasible to make a nice family in various mod states. While 600th is admittedly small for a destroyer, not everyone will go for Revell's new 144th kit. As I'm not a dedicated ship modeller and therefore will never try building up a complete "Jane's all the World's fighting ships" portfolio, I'd prefer 600th over 700th for the reasons of a) a slightly easier manageable size (build-wise) and b) the vast majority of my ship kits are Airfix 600th. 350th would be nice, but the price rise is quite dramatic over 600th. Edit: I just voted 600th. tempestfan peebeep wrote: Hardly a sample to impress a marketing bod Steven! Especially with the in-built bias on this forum - quite understandable but not particularly representative of the big picture. peebeep Admittedly - but then what is the big picture ? The dedicated 700th collectors who apparently are primarily interested in USN and IJN - and are very well catered for -, or the casual buyer who might be attracted by a reasonable price for a reasonably sized kit ? I just don't know. Beaufighter The imponderable is whether those who buy in 1/700 would buy RN / RIN / DKM subjects in 1/700 if they existed, or whether there is a quite separate market for those who want those subjects. Personally I doubt there is much interest among the 1/700 market for anything much except what there already is. They're happy. They have everything they want. When you read Steelnavy and the like, what they always seem to want in 1/700 scale is better tools of older USN / IJN (but only '41-'45) kits. The only new tools they want are more USN cruisers and destroyers. When they talk about bigger scales, they want the same ships in those bigger scales. I reckon Airfix should simply stick with 1/600 and improve them as they are improving the 1/72 stalwarts. If you want RN subjects, then you are limited to a handful of very old 1/700 moulds or very expensive 1/700 resin ones. If Airfix started retooling or kitting stuff in 1/600 I think the units would shift because they'd be the only game in town in a scale that allows you to display more than one. Ideally you'd get the option of full hull or waterline. A retooled Warspite should have the bits to make the WW1 or WW2 version. A retooled Scharnhorst should have the option of six 15" guns as opposed to nine 11" (planned but never done). A 1/600 Graf Zeppelin / Peter Strasser with Sea Stuka / Bf109T air group would be fun, as would some of those cancelled CVL cruiser conversions like the Elbe and Jade. You could appease the aficionado that way as well as the Nazism junkie.   What I'm less clear about is whether such sales would be new or would be transferred from other products that Airfix would have sold anyway. Thus, if they kitted HMS Indefatigable in Jutland configuration, they might sell most of them to people who would otherwise have bought a reissued Iron Duke anyway.   The sales fortunes of the new 1/350 carrier will be very interesting in that it will tell us if there's a market for big RN ships. If it's going to be £40 it's extremely reasonable - the newer 1/350 IJN carriers are five times that, and it isn't all explained by the photo-etched parts. tempestfan Beaufighter wrote: Personally I doubt there is much interest among the 1/700 market for anything much except what there already is. They're happy. They have everything they want. I reckon Airfix should simply stick with 1/600 and improve them as they are improving the 1/72 stalwarts. Ideally you'd get the option of full hull or waterline. A retooled Warspite should have the bits to make the WW1 or WW2 version. A retooled Scharnhorst should have the option of six 15" guns as opposed to nine 11" (planned but never done). What I'm less clear about is whether such sales would be new or would be transferred from other products that Airfix would have sold anyway. The sales fortunes of the new 1/350 carrier will be very interesting in that it will tell us if there's a market for big RN ships. If it's going to be £40 it's extremely reasonable - the newer 1/350 IJN carriers are five times that, and it isn't all explained by the photo-etched parts. If the market researchers would perceive a market for the subjects not yet done in 700th - I guess they'd have filled the gaps a long time ago, so we're thinking on the same lines regarding two (or more) different markets with differing requirements. I agree - see elsewhere -, they should go for max. tool utilisation, this could also be applied to the better of the existing moulds. I'm not so sure about the fixed sales volume theory. Of course a new tool kit likely will steal away sales of an ancient stalwart. But either the runs of the latter will get progressively smaller with every re-release every five years anyway, or the periods between runs will get longer. I guess it's inevitable that there's only a limited number of kits that can be sold of a given ship in a rather narrow market before it is saturated. So in all likelyness, when sales of Duke's re-release are slower than planned the interval until the next release will get extended. But when there are , say, two new mould RN Battleships, I see no reason why they shouldn't have combined sales well above what has been sold in the preceding years on that RN topic. My guess is any sales "cap" would be caused by the effects of limited choice. As the new 350th carrier will be Series 14, I think, it will be around 65 €. Definitely not a mass market kit here on the continent. peebeep tempestfan wrote: what is the big picture ? Future releases Amongst which Trumpeter have announced kits of HMCS Huron, HMS Renown, HMS Repulse and HMS Zulu in 1/700, also multiple issues of Prinz Eugen. HMS Eskimo is a new arrival at Hannant's and Tirpitz, Bismarck, Hood (two versions) and Richelieu are on the catalogue. True some of the RN and DKM tooling from other manufacturers is getting on a bit, but some of them are rather good. I might wish for new releases in 1/600 and hope to be proven wrong, but sorry, I won't be joining the rest of you in sticking my head in the sand!   peebeep tempestfan peebeep wrote: [ I won't be joining the rest of you in sticking my head in the sand!   peebeep Yes, because your heads sticks behind that sofa   I have seen the review of the Tribal, but honestly I was not at all impressed, especially given the quoted price. peebeep tempestfan wrote: I have seen the review of the Tribal, but honestly I was not at all impressed, especially given the quoted price. I think for the purpose of this discussion a review and perceived quality of the kit is a red herring. How do we know that any new releases in 1/600 might not be duds? You'd make a good politician squire! Pricing is probably down to exchange rates. The point is that Trumpeter are prepared to go into the relatively uncharted territory of RN in 1/700 and 1/350. Given their rate of output I'd expect more of the same. I'm withdrawing from this discussion now, I've had a fair say with what is obviously a contentious, but I believe pragmatic POV. peebeep tempestfan peebeep wrote: How do we know that any new releases in 1/600 might not be duds? Pricing is probably down to exchange rates. peebeep Of course we can't know that. Junk for cheap is nearly as bad as junk for a fortune, but I personally tend to forgive deficiencies easier with a cheap kit. My point was that my impression from reviews is that Trumpeter have a tendency to mess up at least one important thing with many of their kits, and their kits are expensive over here as well, and if they become a/the major source for the subjects we're discussing, my feeling is that price indeed plays a role. OK, I know you could twist that point in my hands in that Airfix could do a flawless 700th kit at a better price, but then I doubt they'd go in direct competition with Trumpeter - especially as they may be a tooling source for Airfix. But then you leave me talking to the sofa anyway now... DavidM peebeep wrote: I might wish for new releases in 1/600 and hope to be proven wrong, but sorry, I won't be joining the rest of you in sticking my head in the sand!   peebeep Me neither. David peebeep tempestfan wrote: But then you leave me talking to the sofa anyway now...   Beaufighter Actually, FWIW, my own gut feel is that ship models are a niche within a niche, and compared to 1/72 and 1/48 aircraft the unit volumes are small. On that basis alone, I expect Airfix to focus elsewhere. The 1/350 Illustrious will be a watershed. It's the Falklands one, right? Sharkey Ward, Brian Hanrahan, etc? If so, it's a large scale showpiece kit of a class one of which, unlike the majority of the USN and IJN, actually fought real touch-and-go battles that were not foregone conclusions against skilled opponents,  without either grotesquely outnumbering its opponents or being ignominiously sunk. If nobody outside Europe wants to buy that, I think Airfix will sigh and give up on ship kits. Sales failure will establish that the market for ship kits is USN / IJN ships, for US and Japanese modellers.   If OTOH it sells - and at £50 to £60, it looks like stupendous value compared to recent Fujimi / Hazza offerings, and even the elderly Tamiya 1/350 efforts - then we can hope for a 1/350 Ark Royal, a 1/350 Taranto Victorious, and whatnot. I'll certainly be having an Illustrious. As for more 1/600 jobs, well, you never know, guys. They retooled JE-J, right? :-) Steven Pietrobon I'm not interested in 1/350 ships (too big), but I'd be happy if Airfix would scale down the 1/350 Illustrious down to 1/600. I would certainly buy that. sloop While I am not particularly interested in modern warships I will consider buying an illustrious to support the company. Certainly I will be  grabbing multiple copies of Warspite and Iron Duke to salt away for the future. Browsing my LMS the other day I saw the Tamiya 1/700 repulse on sale for 80 AUD!!! That is more than I paid for two Singaporean re-pops of the Airfix Repulse kit. I know exchange rates are an issue at present, but at those prices and collection on 700 scale ships is just as out-of-reach as 350 scale. Out of necessity, subject matter, affection and personal tradition I will keep buying 600 scale kits. Warspite Poll There is only one scale 1.600. However like some I will buy an Illustrious out of I can only call it loyalty! I did e-mail Trevor at Airfix and asked(begged) if It would be scaled down to 1.600 but no reply? wookie Beaufighter wrote: The 1/350 Illustrious will be a watershed. It's the Falklands one, right? Sharkey Ward, Brian Hanrahan, etc? If so, it's a large scale showpiece kit of a class one of which, unlike the majority of the USN and IJN, actually fought real touch-and-go battles that were not foregone conclusions against skilled opponents,  without either grotesquely outnumbering its opponents or being ignominiously sunk. Sorry - Lusty didn't see active service in the Falklands.  She was on passage south when the surrender was signed but as far as I recall she was still in the North Atlantic.  INVINCIBLE and HERMES were our two carriers that did all the work. It will be interesting to see which configuration the kit is done in and as has been said which options are available.  Will she be as built with a 7 degree ski ramp or as per her later refit with 12?  Will she have Sea Dart or the increased deck space?  Will she have Goalkeeper?  Indeed will all of these options (plus Phalanx) be available so that INVINCIBLE or ARK ROYAL can be modelled from the kit. Beaufighter wrote: If OTOH it sells - and at £50 to £60, it looks like stupendous value compared to recent Fujimi / Hazza offerings, and even the elderly Tamiya 1/350 efforts - then we can hope for a 1/350 Ark Royal, a 1/350 Taranto Victorious, and whatnot. Sorry again, don't mean to be picky but it was the last ILLUSTRIOUS that carried the Swordfish to attack Taranto.  Definitely agree your sentiments for a 1/350 ARK ROYAL IV though. Beaufighter Right, but presumably the Illustrious could be converted to make the Falklands vessel, right? That's what I would do with it. Any WW2 RN carrier in 1/350 would be fine by me! Victorious would probably be the best subject to hedge bets, since IIRC she served in the Pacific briefly as the USS Robin. So merkins might buy one... chrisbh I voted 1/600. My fingers are too fat for 1/700 and my wallet too thin for 1/350 . As to _what_ I'd like to see, I'll join the queue for ILLUSTRIOUS, a better Leander class (some conversion options for e.g, notwithstanding articles and after-market parts available), T22/23/42 as well as some landmark vessels such as DREADNOUGHT and WARRIOR. Ah well, dream on...... Aye, Chris feanor Ayup All... Although i voted 'Don't Care', i appreciate that some of you here do. We all want more or less, our collections to be uniformly scaled for comparison and not Higgledy- piggeldy in size. especially considering the needs of storage and display space ! As with ALL the models i buy, I look to subject first, then scale, (The bigger the better !) and this is compared with price and how much i want it and am prepared to pay... I would like, later on in the year, a six month 'Classic' ship GB which includes ALL the large scale rigged ships, but maybe intertwined with modern 'Capital' ships too. Heinkel51 My preference is 1/600 mainly because I consider it a nice balance between detail, space and cost.  I have acquired a 1/350 ICM Grosser Kurfurst but only because it was marked down to a give away price. I know this is going off topic but for destroyers, corvettes etc my suggestion would be 1/96 as it seems a very popular scale with many model ship builders. For subjects in 1/600 some more CL's, both RN and DKM please.        - The Airfix Tribute Forum - Forum Index -> Ships and Boats Page 1 of 1