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DavidM

HSL102 - the curse of restoration strikes again

They don't stop eating money once they're restored, when are people going to realise that?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/a...-102--surviving-Dunkirk-boat.html

David
walrus

Can some one please explain why the vessel must be broken up if a buyer is not found.

I realise there will necessarily be costs involved to maintain 102 but it all seems a tad excessive.
daniel7891

He sounds a little selfish, if he doesnt get his money he's going to break it up so no one can see it. At least lower the price of donate it to a museum
Ratch

I wonder what he'd say if someone offered to restore it without money exchanging hands  
DavidM

Maybe the people at the lottery handing out the money ought to have asked for a management plan before splashing out?

'So what's going to happen after the restoration?'

'Errr....... haven't thought'

'Close the door behind you on the way out'

David
peebeep

DavidM wrote:
Maybe the people at the lottery handing out the money ought to have asked for a management plan before splashing out?


The article says he used his own money to restore it, so was there any lottery money splashed out on it? The lottery commission is pretty hot on long term management of projects where they offer grants. He cannot get a lottery grant for it's upkeep because it is owned by a private individual (himself). The mathematics are simple, if there is no buyer and/or he cannot afford to berth the boat then it will have to be disposed of in some way. As I see it his best bet would be to set up a trust and nominate the trust as the owner which would make it eligible for grant funding. As it stands, even if he sells for the asking price he is taking a big loss on the money he has already spent, so it seems to be a bit unfair to criticise the guy. Even if the boat is lost he made it possible for a lot of folks to enjoy it in all its glory, surely no bad thing.

peebeep
Sgt.Squarehead

Perhaps Airfix/Humbrol/Hornby might be able to help out.....There would cetainly be opportunities for a unique promotion of one of their most unique kits!  

Just a thought, all the best
Sgt.S
(Who thinks that launch really must be saved!   )
Loll

Well the bloke has paid all the costs of restoration himself , in the region of £500,000, and now having used it for some time, he is not able to continue keeping it. So he want's to sell it at £380,000 cheap by any standard. Looks like a very fair price for a superb boat.
He has a very few choices:
1) Sell it for what it is worth
2) Sell it for less, he's been trying to do that.
3) Keep it and all the running costs
4) Donate it to the custody of a charity or museum or similar, and watch it deteriorate like so many gifted items do, because these organisations only have a limited income.
5) Set up a charitable trust for it and reapply for Lottery funding.
6) Say to hell with all this effort, no one seems to appreciate it I might as well scrap it, at least it will no longer be a financial drain.
It costs a fair bit just to keep a boat berthed or even dry parked out of the water.

Maybe someone like Airfix might buy it and use it for advertising and display purposes, they could even change the one in the range to the same number and pull back some of the cost that way.
There must be lots of kids who like to build what they see in real life, that's what sells lots of models and kits.
This boat is small enough to negotiate canals, so it might be used to advertise in most of the cities in this sceptred isle.
daniel7891

Quote:
(Who thinks that launch really must be saved!   )


It has to be saved, who ever owns it. Its a part of history and shouldn't be be destroyed IMO
Loll

daniel7891 wrote:
Quote:
(Who thinks that launch really must be saved!   )


It has to be saved, who ever owns it. Its a part of history and shouldn't be be destroyed IMO

Very noble, but who pays ?
walrus

Quote:
The mathematics are simple, if there is no buyer and/or he cannot afford to berth the boat then it will have to be disposed of in some way.


Fair enough- but the breaker's yard still seems drastic.  other options such as donation to a museum?  if the chap is gonna lose his money he may as well leave some form of legacy for his hard work and financial outlay.

If 102 is the last of her breed- even a static display would be preferable to a pile of matchsticks.
daniel7891

Loll wrote:
daniel7891 wrote:
Quote:
(Who thinks that launch really must be saved!   )


It has to be saved, who ever owns it. Its a part of history and shouldn't be be destroyed IMO

Very knoble, but who pays ?


Why does anyone need to pay?, just donate it to a naval museum  instead of breaking it up
peebeep

daniel7891 wrote:
Why does anyone need to pay?, just donate it to a naval museum  instead of breaking it up


Somebody gets to pay!

As pointed above if it is given to a museum it is likely to be left somewhere to rot and eventually require further restoration. It's best long term future is as a 'runner', but it will have to be funded by somebody or some organisation.

Walrus, the breaker's yard is the only option if there is no buyer and the owner can no longer pay for a suitable berth. Give it away? See above! At least he gets some return by breaking it, that is the cold economics.

peebeep
daniel7891

Fair enough, it may be better in the long run to break it up, it just seems a shame
Sgt.Squarehead

Considering its unique nature and the very real role this vessel played in saving lives during WWII, I think it deserves considerably more public support than say, a large environementally unfriendly delta winged bomber with no combat record of any significance.  

This strikes me as a perfect example of when the public should step in to preserve something of real historical significance.....As opposed to being expected to cough-up to support a few individual's perverse nostalgia for the cold-war.  

All the best
Sgt.S
peebeep

Sarge, if I were you I'd be thinking about running for cover....but I agree with the sentiment.

peebeep
Loll

Sgt.Squarehead wrote:
Considering its unique nature and the very real role this vessel played in saving lives during WWII, I think it deserves considerably more public support than say, a large environementally unfriendly delta winged bomber with no combat record of any significance.  

This strikes me as a perfect example of when the public should step in to preserve something of real historical significance.....As opposed to being expected to cough-up to support a few individual's perverse nostalgia for the cold-war.  

All the best
Sgt.S

oooouch !!! such Sacrilege  !!!!  Where's the lynching party eh what chaps wackho !!
( I do agree though that the subject is far more important)
Sgt.Squarehead

Bring 'em on.....This monkey ain't for turnin!  
walrus

Quote:
As pointed above if it is given to a museum it is likely to be left somewhere to rot and eventually require further restoration.


I'm not disagreeing withyour analysis of the economics involved for the current owner, Peebeep, or criticising the owner- he has obviously invested a lot more than money into the project. it must be heartbreaking for him.

It is such awful timing in the current economic climate, 102 looks doomed.  My point is that there will be no potential for any sort restoration in the future if it ends up as scrap.

(If the boat was donated to a museum wouldn't it therefore qualify for lottery funding?)
peebeep

walrus wrote:
(If the boat was donated to a museum wouldn't it therefore qualify for lottery funding?)


It might qualify, but you would need an individual or group of individuals with a dynamic and vision to take it on as an ongoing concern. There are artifacts scattered up and down the country, taken on by museums who thought it was a good idea at the time, but they had no plan and after a while the whole the thing gets shunted into some dark, dank corner.

The aforementioned tin triangle is an example of the opposite, but just look at the time, money and effort it takes.

peebeep
walrus

Quote:
Considering its unique nature and the very real role this vessel played in saving lives during WWII, I think it deserves considerably more public support than say, a large   .
 

As I was composing my last post (sans bugle) did occur that:

a) wot the Sarge said except the last bit-edited for the sake of us with sensitive dispositions

b) If it was a WW2 warbird there would be greater effort in maintaining her perhaps. There are plenty of punters that keep these beauties in the air- why doesn't the launch receive the same level of enthusiasm
Loll

[quote="walrus"]
Quote:
As <snip>

(If the boat was donated to a museum wouldn't it therefore qualify for lottery funding?)

Only if their allocation has not already been ... er allocated. They only get so many chances for Lottery cash, because there are so many more 'important' things for the Lottery folk to waste it on, maybe if it was a left footed football playing overweight lesbian boat , it might qualify.
It is continually amazing what the Lottery money gets wasted on when so many real things need the money.
Maybe if it smashed up and piled in a heap, £5 million Lottery money would be thrown at it as 'art' !
peebeep

walrus wrote:
why doesn't the launch receive the same level of enthusiasm


Just look at the pages here, or the model catalogues etc. etc. Aircraft are popular with public and enthusiasts alike, ships less so.

peebeep
Loll

walrus wrote:
Quote:
Considering its unique nature and the very real role this vessel played in saving lives during WWII, I think it deserves considerably more public support than say, a large   .
 

As I was composing my last post (sans bugle) did occur that:

a) wot the Sarge said except the last bit-edited for the sake of us with sensitive dispositions

b) If it was a WW2 warbird there would be greater effort in maintaining her perhaps. There are plenty of punters that keep these beauties in the air- why doesn't the launch receive the same level of enthusiasm

Obviously there is not enough water on the runways they use   !!  I'll get me coat ....
Sgt.Squarehead

This vessel offers far more to the public than that damned Vulcan ever could!  

Airfix could run a promo on their launch kit using this vessel at the drop of a hat:

1 - Buy Airfix 1/72 Launch Kit

2 - Enter Airfix Launch Competition

3 - Become A Lucky Winner!  (Perhaps one of ten or twenty)

4 - Ride Across Channel In Restored Launch.....Leaving a rooster tail the like of which even god has never seen!  

As opposed to the Vulcan option:

1 - Buy Airfix 1/72 Vulcan Kit

2 - Enter Airfix Vulcan Competition

3 - Become A Lucky Winner!  (Perhaps one of two)

4 - Fail Medical And Refused Flight Insurance.....Enjoy!  

QED, I think!  

All the best
Sgt.S
walrus

Quote:
It might qualify, but you would need an individual or group of individuals with a dynamic and vision to take it on as an ongoing concern.


My point b) above- Peebeep was being typed as you posted

Where are the enthusiasts for the launch- this vessel SAVED PEOPLES LIVES  As much as wingy things are my- er - thing
it is a tad baffling that there seems to be a great amount of effort to maintaining airplanes - historic vessels like 102 IMHO deserve the same respect and dedication.  so where are they and what is it about airplanes that people will put in the effort and cash?

(Don't ask me for a donation- my money has gone on plastic)
walrus

Quote:
Obviously there is not enough water on the runways they use   !!  I'll get me coat ....


Are you sure, Loll?  Given the summer we've had here in Blighty there may well be.  

p.s. Don't forget your brolly ! Boat
Loll

walrus wrote:
Quote:
Obviously there is not enough water on the runways they use   !!  I'll get me coat ....


Are you sure, Loll?  Given the summer we've had here in Blighty there may well be.  

p.s. Don't forget your brolly ! Boat
ROTFL
Loll

We have this 'clever' panel of 'judges' who decide in their 'wisdom' where the Lottery money is wasted. Some of the things which get funding 99.9% of the population would not give a nod to. When ever a sensible item is raised it gets support of 99.9% of the population and zero funding. Where they pick these twits from is anybody's guess.
Also it certainly seems that once granted, the spending of the money is not monitored and it does seem to just be gobbled up with no control at all.
The Vulcan has absorbed an absolute fortune , in fact more than building a new one would have cost. There do not seem to be enough questions asked as where the money goes. Well this sort of thing is very expensive , why ? theres always more than one way to skin a cat.  I think a lot of it is people being blinded by blurb. I've no doubt there was a lot of work done by specialists, which could have been done by volunteers and only over seen by specialists. Lets not forget that a lot of volunteers are just as qualified as some specialists, but if the work is going to outside firms, who get paid, why would a volunteer want to do it for nothing.  I'm very sure that a lot of specialists and experts might have been glad to do the work for the publicity, and general kudos of being involved.  I had always thought that this was the general idea behind such projects.
daniel7891

I would say that this a very deserving cause for lottery money
Loll

daniel7891 wrote:
I would say that this a very deserving cause for lottery money
Almost guaranteed not to get any then !
kitkiddie

You are all pretty much spot-on with your respective analyses thus far.

Loll is correct about the oddball choices being  made as to what gets Lotto finance and what doesn't.

The Vulcan? I agree with Sarge's comments entirely.
Great as it is seeing the old bird airborne once again - and no one can deny it is a magnificent sight and sound - I am sure there are much more deserving causes, not to mention causes which are much more accessible to the General Public.
As for the cost of 'specialists' - it's a mixture of Red Tape and real need.

As many of us are aware, to work on such things as aircraft which can actually fly, you need certification and time on type, plus the insurance.

I am sure however, that a 'Middle Way' could be found whereby mission-critical parts of the aircraft are maintained by volunteers but are checked out by Certified Engineers, both airframe and engines.

Then there's the security aspect - no one  - especially the MOD & Govt, who would not want something a big as a Vulcan being hijacked and flown deliberately into the Houses of Parliament - however attractive that option may be to the rest of us!

I once heard something about the Bruntigthorpe Lighting being refused a permit to fly because it was so very quick, and civil radar couldn't track it properly once airborne and at full thrutch!

They were terrified they'd lose track of it. No idea how much truth there was in it, but the CAA simply weren't happy that such a potent aircraft would be allowed to be flown by a civilian.

Now take the RAF Launch - much more accessible to the public, and much cheaper to maintain in comparison. Not only this, but it is a subject whicch is of much greater historical significance.
I think the owner is sensationalizing the story a little in order to provoke an awareness of his plight. Holding the threat of destruction over everyone's head is hardly a constructive way forward though.
As for it's ultimate destiny? That'll be for it's owner to decide, and in the present economic climate, no one is exactly chucking a lot of money around at the moment - except of course the tax payers!

Keiron
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