- The Airfix Tribute Forum -

James Russell · Posted: Wed 10 Dec 2008 16:24 pm Post subject:

Dear DavidM,

Thanks for taking such an interest in my little project. I was most interested to see the photo of the hull-side door open and sporting what I take to be an OD finish! I know at the US factories OD enamel paint was baked (kilned) onto the tanks before the "software" - electrics, rubber hose, and etc. - was added.

I'll probably fall to the colourful red/white insignia. I have looked in a copy of BT White's "British AFV Colours and Markings" and learned that I can have 40,86,67 for fighting squadrons.

Your photos have been great for suggesting details. Thanks again. I look forward to your future observations and suggestions.

DavidM · Posted: Thu 11 Dec 2008 09:19 am Post subject:

Hi James

If your PC can handle some of the very large pdfs here, then you can explore the whacky world of British markings for armoured units (and the 7th Armoured pdf is very large indeed). The 40/86/67 sequence is for armoured regiments within a brigade with 40 the senior unit (red tac marks), 86 the intermediate (yellow) and 67 the junior (blue). The numbers are on red to which designates an armoured unit, though if the division had more than one armoured brigade then the backnig colour would be different for the other brigades. This number sequence only applied in the desert as you will find if you look through the page.

http://www.armouredacorn.com/Reference/BAM/Default.htm

David
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David Maynard. 1962-2009. Gone too soon but not forgotten.

stuzzar · Posted: Thu 11 Dec 2008 13:43 pm Post subject:

Thanks for that link David, I had lost that one, very useful site

James, interesting to see the different techniques in use to solve the hull fit issues. this is one of my favourite aspects of group builds, learning new methods to solve the odd problem that crops up with these older kits.

Cheers

Stu

James Russell · Posted: Sun 14 Dec 2008 02:50 am Post subject:

Tonight I watched the 1943 documentary "Desert Victory." If you haven't seen it, or haven't seen it recently, it is worth the trouble. There is plenty of footage of 6pdrs, 25pdrs, 5.5 in. and all the desert tanks and aircraft. A whale of a lot of staged footage, but still a fine resource.
It has a few Grant tanks portrayed. The British tanks are always shown crossing the screen from right to left (I suppose to help the audience follow the story-line), but sometimes the Grants are shown with hull-mounted 75mms on the port side! Made my eyes cross until I figured that the producers reversed the negatives. And, DavidM, I noticed that few tanks had divisional or AoS signs on there sandshields and fenders - I may have to reconsider your suggestion.
Here is a question: does anyone know of photographs of Morris Quads in the desert? All I saw were CMP FATs.
General Alexander speaks in a particular accent - sounds like he went to the same finishing school as Montgomery. Did Slim speak the same way?

Thanks for any thoughts or information.

James Russell · Posted: Mon 05 Jan 2009 00:50 am Post subject:

It has been some time and I ought to account for myself. The lead up to Christmas is very demanding of my time and I don’t know whether I will be able to meet our 10 January end-date. Still, I have had a chance to get back to the model and fiddle with a few things over the last two days.

Turret pictures between rounds of sanding and shaping

The turret aspect of the project is the centre of the model for me; that is the great shining improvement the Airfix model needs. Lamentably, I have had my discouragements on this score. Though I have wanted a better looking turret I have also been looking for the easy way to get it. My clever idea of using the Lee turret base for the Grant turret was initially promising, but it eventually became clear that even this creates too small a turret ring. As all the other dimensions of the turret I’m making are approximately accurate to the Bradford drawings, the too small turret looks . . . you guessed it . . . too small. In truth, I started out just wanting to have some fun with an old model, but as I invested my time I upped the accuracy anti. The proper 1.76 scale turret ring diameter is just shy of 7/8” (sorry dudes, but I’m in the USA and forgot my metric ruler today) – a disc which was a snap to make using a compass on some 10 thou plastic sheet. The model now is that much taller and since one of the reasons the British Tank Purchasing Board wanted a new turret in 1942 was for a lower overall silhouette (US M3s were 3.12 metres, Grants 3.02 metres) it seems I ought to sand the top down to bring it into line with history.
A little digression here, but nevertheless interesting for those of us who live in braille scale country; US manufactured tanks like the M3 and M4 Mediums were much taller than their British contemporaries. This difference does not appear so glaring in 1.76 scale, but in 1.1 scale it had some grave consequences. The height disadvantages of US tanks were never worse than with the Grant in the desert. So much of the Western Desert is flat and any attempts at “hull down” positioning – taking advantage of the lay-of-the-land for cover- were confounded by the hull mounted 75mm gun. The Grant was the largest target in Egypt!

Turret standing too tall, but taking shape nicely

Height, by the way, is the source of another frustration as I begin to imagine a diorama for my Grant. I have been thinking of a scene where engineers equipped with mine detectors and bayonets are widening a gap in a minefield with the towering Grant sitting waiting in the midsts – possibly the widening is taking place to allow the Grant to bypass a crippled troop mate. Most 8th Army figurines are simply too tall. The ESCI and Revell sets are true 1.72 scale and will mostly serve to reduce the stature of the Airfix Grant. I have decided to limit myself to smaller fellows in the 2nd Airfix 8th Army set (in this set, by the way, the "little brothers" of the 1.32 set are 1.72 and the blance of the set is 1.76). Yet, even they look tall. I may end up placing the figurines in a slight depression relative to the tank.
I want most of the figurines to be in battle order – small packs, bayonet frog, and water bottles - to appear like the soldiers in “Desert Victory.” I am altering the distribution of kit a bit - frogs have been moved to the left hip and water bottles to the right hip. I am also interested in having at least one stripped to the waist character. Although I wanted to make this an all Airfix affair, the Airfix "Ancient Britons" and "American Indians" sets didn't have an appropriate chest to donate. The ESCI 25pdr crew are 1.72 scale mammoths. I am going to use an ESCI Zulu or two for the shirtless subjects and some Fujimi 8th Army bits and pieces to give me a little more room for manoeuvre.

RE figurines - an Anglo-Zulu effort. Small packs and extra water bottles

So, in these group builds what happens when time is up? Do I need to apply for an extension?

feanor · Posted: Mon 05 Jan 2009 06:18 am Post subject:

Ayup James...

I believe they just 'Move Over' into GB Plus...
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farmroad38 · Posted: Mon 05 Jan 2009 08:42 am Post subject:

Yep, Stu is right - when the end of the GB is reached, it just moves into the GB Plus section of the forum. You can carry on buiding away at whatever pace you are comfortable with.
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Cheers,

Adrian

Heinkel51 · Posted: Mon 05 Jan 2009 12:28 pm Post subject:

A lot of effort there, also like the conversion work on the figures

James Russell · Posted: Mon 05 Jan 2009 18:24 pm Post subject:

Dear fellows,
Thanks for the kind words. I have been interested to discover the difference between the Airfix depiction of British kit and the actual. Many enthusiasts reckon the Airfix 2nd type 8th Army are the best braille scale depictions of this subject, and they are certainly quite fine. I'm sorry they weren't manufactured in battle order - but then again, in an age of ACC glues attaching packs isn't a bother. The water bottle normally rests on the right hip and the bayonet on the left. The most distracting aspect of the 1.72 scale part of the set is the enormity of the tin hats. I'm replacing the 1.72 heads with donations from the 1.76 part of the set.
Alamein has to be the most prominent occasion in WW2 where mine detectors were used - certainly an 8th Army set ought to include a soldier with a "Polish" type mine detector. The Airfix guy is a welcome inclusion in the set - but peculiar. He has no battery, amp, or headset! Also the detector paddle itself is of the later US "frying-pan" variety. The most abundant British type was more rectangular (I have some photos of it over in the figurines section of the Airfix Tribute Forum).
Heinkel51, I imagine the fellow without a shirt is an Australian.

Figurines before attaching kit and applying body-filler. I will also use nylon thread to depict the electrical leads on the mine detectors

Sgt.Squarehead · Posted: Tue 06 Jan 2009 18:16 pm Post subject:

Bravo!

Top notch figure bashing.....I look forward to seeing more!

All the best
Sgt.S
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stuzzar · Posted: Wed 07 Jan 2009 13:29 pm Post subject:

Quite agree, 1st class work, looking forward to seeing the completed diorama.

Cheers

Stu