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Scales
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DavidM









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PostPosted: Mon 23 Feb 2009 21:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ratch wrote:
So is 1/600 a dying scale  


Now there's a hard question to answer.

Not dying but one who's future needs to be very carefully considered. Personally I think Airfix would be forcing themselves into a niche market if they carry on with it, but the mourners aren't gathering quite yet. There are still plenty of people around who would buy as this thread has demonstrated.

Depends on the market Airfix wish to aim at in the end.

David
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PostPosted: Mon 23 Feb 2009 22:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ratch wrote:
So is 1/600 a dying scale  


As long as tooling exists from which kits can be manufactured, no, but it would take a brave decision for anybody to decide tooling up new kits.

I would regard it as a constructive dismissal, something it doesn't really deserve, but it's happened regardless.

peebeep
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PostPosted: Mon 23 Feb 2009 22:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ratch wrote:
So is 1/600 a dying scale  


The future is in Airfix's hands. It's not dead yet, but as has been stated, the scale is at a bit of a crossroads. With only one new tool in nearly 30 years, and many of the remaining ones long past their best, the only real options are to abandon it completely, or commit to it fully and tool several new ships, with others planned further down the line.

Here's my suggested lineup for a revived 1/600

HMS Dreadnought (of course!)
HMS Daring (new)
HMS Queen Elizabeth (CVF)
HMS Furious
Satsuma (first Japanese 'Dreadnought')
USS South Carolina (first American 'Dreadnought')
HMS Invincible (world's first battle-cruiser)

Better add something WW2 German to that, and frankly I'm struggling to think of a ship that hasn't been done to death. The only 'battleships' not kitted repeatedly and ad nauseum in any scale are the two pre-Dreadnoughts still kicking around because of the Versailles treaty - and who'd buy those? Perhaps an Emden, Leipzig, Konigsberg or Nurnburg class light cruiser?
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PostPosted: Tue 24 Feb 2009 00:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At IPMS Huddersfield I was totally dismayed by the lack of floaty things. Huge numbers of German tanks and a good showing of Allied stuff. Little quantity of military trucks but what there was was superb. Lots of aircraft but majority WWII. Some wonderful Vee bombers though. Where are the ship modellers out there? One outstanding floaty model was a Hospital ship at 1:700 I think- a superb scratch build and I think it won the competition.
There seems to be only a few floaty modellers out there- so we should support people like Remy (Orionv) all the more- keeping the flame alive.
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PostPosted: Tue 24 Feb 2009 07:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are a number of new kits still being made in 1/600 scale. See list below.

Airfix/Heller Queen Mary 2
Academy Titanic
Aeroplast HMS Cossack/Tartar
Arii USS Iowa/New Jersey/Missouri/Wisconson
Arii IJN Yamato/Musashi
Kangnam/Lee USS Enterprise
Kangnam/Lee USS Iowa/New Jersey/Missouri/Wisconson (same as Arii?)
Kitech/Zhengdefu Charles de Gaulle
Nichomo IJN Yamato/Musashi (same as Arii?)
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PostPosted: Tue 24 Feb 2009 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steven Pietrobon wrote:
There are a number of new kits still being made in 1/600 scale. See list below.

Academy Titanic


Academy does a 1/600 Titanic? Why did Airfix choose to go with the 1/700 one in the new catalogue?
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PostPosted: Tue 24 Feb 2009 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DavidM wrote:
Tamiya get plenty of stick for continuing to push tired old stuff in other forums, don't worry about that.

And while we're at it, perhaps Revell of Germany could look in their stores for the moulds of the Matchbox Kelly and Exeter, two more to add to the RN list. Exeter did go out to Alanger for a while, but hopefully the moulds survived the excursion. They needn't bother with the Ariadne, judging by the example I have.

David


Good to hear...
For some reason, Revell do not seem to be interested in re-releasing some MB kits for reasons not at all obvious to me. Quality can't be the decisive consideration, as they have done all the 32nd a/c except the 109 which I would rate best of the bunch, with the possible exception of the Puma. They have done many of the other a/c kits but not the biplanes (majority thereof) and the Twin Otter. And the only ship I can recall (still in the black MB boxing ) is the San Diego. I can't tell a Missouri from a Yamato, but the kits that I have do not look all that bad, and most of them surely haven't been done to death, or have they ?
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PostPosted: Tue 24 Feb 2009 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

XN923 wrote:
Academy does a 1/600 Titanic? Why did Airfix choose to go with the 1/700 one in the new catalogue?


Because this is the scale that's been chosen for future releases?!

Academy does Titanics in 1/720, 1/700, 1/600 and 1/400.

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PostPosted: Tue 24 Feb 2009 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steven Pietrobon wrote:
There are a number of new kits still being made in 1/600 scale. See list below.

Airfix/Heller Queen Mary 2
Academy Titanic
Aeroplast HMS Cossack/Tartar
Arii USS Iowa/New Jersey/Missouri/Wisconson
Arii IJN Yamato/Musashi
Kangnam/Lee USS Enterprise
Kangnam/Lee USS Iowa/New Jersey/Missouri/Wisconson (same as Arii?)
Kitech/Zhengdefu Charles de Gaulle
Nichomo IJN Yamato/Musashi (same as Arii?)


"New" is relatively relative. I don't think Arii has many own moulds, so most likely those are older moulds from another mfr. bought in by Arii. Maybe Otaki ?
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PostPosted: Tue 24 Feb 2009 13:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tempestfan wrote:
I can't tell a Missouri from a Yamato, but the kits that I have do not look all that bad, and most of them surely haven't been done to death, or have they ?


Several of the MB subjects have been covered more recently by other manufacturers (like the San Diego and Indianapolis), but the Exeter and Kelly (and the Ariadne) certainly haven't appeared in plastic since. MB's German destroyer is also apparently streets ahead of the Skywave/Tamiya one.

David
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PostPosted: Tue 24 Feb 2009 13:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tempestfan wrote:
They have done many of the other a/c kits but not the biplanes (majority thereof) and the Twin Otter.


Twin Otter
Heyford
Walrus
Swordfish

I think it's simply a matter of time before the old MB catalogue gets rotated, that will hopefully include the ships and the Purple Series biplanes.

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PostPosted: Tue 24 Feb 2009 13:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peebeep wrote:
tempestfan wrote:
They have done many of the other a/c kits but not the biplanes (majority thereof) and the Twin Otter.


Twin Otter
Heyford
Walrus
Swordfish

I think it's simply a matter of time before the old MB catalogue gets rotated, that will hopefully include the ships and the Purple Series biplanes.

peebeep

Thanks for the update Paul, I was aware of the Swordfish and relatively recent Heyford (and I've also seen the Seafox, so they indeed seem to be working their way there), but the Twotter is new to me, for this year ? Nice kit ! I'd love to see Fury, P-12 and Siskin back.
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PostPosted: Tue 24 Feb 2009 15:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peebeep wrote:
XN923 wrote:
Academy does a 1/600 Titanic? Why did Airfix choose to go with the 1/700 one in the new catalogue?


Because this is the scale that's been chosen for future releases?!

Academy does Titanics in 1/720, 1/700, 1/600 and 1/400.

peebeep


That's what worries me...

Unless the 1/700 kit is a gem and the 1/600 a dog... Maybe the writing is on the wall for 1/600. Can we get a statement to this effect from Airfix?

Surprising that they released a new tool kit in this scale relatively recently, and now appear to be moving towards dropping it. Surely a 1/600 Titanic would have sat that much better next to the QM2.
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PostPosted: Tue 24 Feb 2009 16:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

XN923 wrote:

That's what worries me...

Unless the 1/700 kit is a gem and the 1/600 a dog... Maybe the writing is on the wall for 1/600. Can we get a statement to this effect from Airfix?

Surprising that they released a new tool kit in this scale relatively recently, and now appear to be moving towards dropping it. Surely a 1/600 Titanic would have sat that much better next to the QM2.


My feeling is that they have not really decided which road to go. OK, 350th and 700th are somewhat complimentary, but then 400th is much too close to the former (or is the range completely dropped again ? Sorry for not following this aspect more closely), and then there's also 600th in between. A bit too much scales IMHO for a limited number of kits, this is somehat Revell'esque (from their older days), and I think it may leave some people somewhat confused. If the "Japanese" road is taken, then it may be advisable to have a clean sheet approach and concentrate on the two scales - and consequently drop the other scales completely. Such a situation would also probably make it easier to explain to the bean counting fraternity why money has to be spent for a, say, Victorious. I'd bet there will never be a new tool Viccie by Airfix as long as the 600th line is continued.
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PostPosted: Tue 24 Feb 2009 16:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree...  
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PostPosted: Tue 24 Feb 2009 21:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peebeep wrote:


Because this is the scale that's been chosen for future releases?!

peebeep


I sincerely hope not!  But if that's the case, I suppose I can reconsile myself with the fact that with the kits that are currently available, there are years' worth of conversion possibilities.  The by Leander Class alone can produce the basis for 26 Leanders, (more if you look at things like the Indian UDAYGIRI class), 12 Rothesays 6 Whitbys and to a degree 8 Cat/Cathedral class.  So that should keep me going for a good few years!  Not to mention the Belfast/Tiger combination that can produce at least a dozen different Town/Colony class cruisers.

Quite what I would do with the spare DLG and T21 kits that came with the Leanders after I've done the 8 respectively of those I'm not too sure!
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PostPosted: Tue 24 Feb 2009 22:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wookie wrote:


Quite what I would do with the spare DLG and T21 kits that came with the Leanders after I've done the 8 respectively of those I'm not too sure!


Funny you should mention that, because I am currently running a FREE DLG and T21 disposal service  Whistling
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PostPosted: Wed 25 Feb 2009 00:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I was very disappointed that Airfix chose the 1/700 Titanic instead of 1/600. The 1/600 gets a very good review on the Titanic Model Web Site.

"Quite possibly, this may be the finest ocean liner model on the market in styrene and in this scale."

According to this review, the 1/700 kit is aimed at a basic skill level, which is maybe why the 1/600 kit was not chosen (which is much more detailed and aimed at an intermediate skill level). I already have the Academy 1/600 kit which comes in a fairly large size box.
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PostPosted: Wed 25 Feb 2009 17:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems like Airfix is hedging. It does sound like they have gone for this kit aimed mainly at the younger/less skilled market (Titanic is more of a mass market subject after all) rather than as a statement of intent on future scales - although the fact that it is new in the catalogue at the same time as a newly-tooled 1/350 scale ship still looks like the winds of change may be blowing.

As I noted before, I like 1/600 and am not a fan of 1/700 - it either seems too toy-like or too fiddly depending on the detail level of the kit. I'm not a big ship model builder really but my favourite scale is 1/600 as it seems to suit the size of ship I like to build.
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PostPosted: Wed 25 Feb 2009 22:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DavidM wrote:
Carrying the 1/600 question a bit further, which other companies issued ships in this scale, other than Airfix? Even Frog opted for (IIRC) 1/500.

David


From: http://www.quuxuum.org/rajens_list/rajen.html

[My comments in italics]

Arii/Otaki:  GENERAL COMMENTS: For some unknown reason, ARII battleships are in 1/600, their carriers are in 1/800, and everything else is in 1/700. Go figure. Many of their 1/600 and 1/800 scale ships seem to be re-issues of Otaki kits. Apparently, some ARII kits were released in England under the brand name "Hypa"

Enterprise (USN CVN-65) [1/600] {93381} (Cold)
# Iowa-class (USN BB-61) {132} [1/600] (WW2-Mod)

Editor's Notes: See Geoffry Woods' review under Wisconsin.

This kit has been issued at various times as:

   * Iowa (BB-61) (kit 132)
   * New Jersey (BB-62) (kit 130)
   * Missouri (BB-63) (kit 133)
   * Wisconsin (BB-64) (kit 134)
# Musashi (IJN BB) [1/600] {122} (WW2) FH

Presumably the same kit as the Yamato. Unknown whether the instructions account for the differences between the ships. (DRW)

Aurora:
   GENERAL COMMENTS: Aurora, was in business from 1952 to 1977. They started in Brooklyn, New York, but the moved to West Hempstead, (Long Island), New York fairly early. They were once among the leading manufacturers in the business, but they went out of the plastic model business in 1975. They made some decent surface ships in 1/600 scale, (sadly, they were not always accurate below the waterline)

Bainbridge (USN DLGN-25/CGN-25) {717} [1/600] (Cold) FH

Bismarck (DKM BB) {715} [1/600] (WW2)

Enterprise (USN CV-6) {720} [1/600] (WW2) FH

Forrestal (USN CVA-59) {701} [1/600] (Cold) FH

(Also released as Independence (USN CVA-62) and Saratoga (USN CVA-60))

Graf Spee (DKM CA) {709} [1/600] (WW2) FH

Guadalcanal (USN LPH-7) {718} [1/600] (Cold) FH

Iowa (USN BB-61) {705} [1/600] (WW2) FH

Editor's Note: This kit dates back to at least 1962. It has been issued as

   * Iowa (kit 705)
   * New Jersey (kit 724)
   * Missouri (kit 723)

King George V (RN BB) {712} [1/600] (WW2)

St. Paul (USN Baltimore class CA-73) {703} [1/600] (WW2/Mod)

Yamato (IJN BB) {713} [1/600?] (WW2) FH

Prince of Wales (RN BB) {NF-4002} [1/600] (WW2) FH

Editor's Note: Presumably, reissue of Airfix King George V kit. (DRW)

# Repulse (RN BC) {NF-4001} [1/600] (WW1/WW2) FH

Editor's Note: Reissue of Airfix Repulse kit. (DRW)

Hap Dong:
   GENERAL COMMENTS: A South Korean company. Apparently, this is the same company as the model aircraft manufacturer Ace.

# Enterprise (USN CVN-65) [1/600] {S125} (Cold)

Editor's Note: See notes under Kangnam Enterprise.

Hawk/Testors:
   GENERAL COMMENTS: Chicago based Hawk used to be a significant US injection molded polystyrene model kit maufacturer, but were bought out by Testors in the early 1970s. In addition to their kits of cars and aircraft, they made at least some ships. These were re-issued by Testors in 2003.

Coast Guard Cutter (USCG Cutter) {12-39} [1/600] (WW2) FH

LST (USN LST-493) {11-39} [1/600] (WW2) FH

Editor's Note: Hull is said to be 6.5 inches long. Box art shows LST-493. Testors reissued this kit in 2003.

Heller:

La Couronne {066} [1/600]

Editor's Note: Said to be 147mm long.

Eagle (USCG Sail Trainer) [1/600] (Cold)

Editor's Note: Said to be 149mm long.

Gorch Fock (German Sail Trainer) [1/600] (Cold)

Editor's Note: Said to be 149mm long. Possibly the same as Heller's Eagle kit.

le Phenix (sailing ship) [1/600] FH

Editor's Note: Said to be 138mm long when completed.

Royal Louis (French Ship of the Line) [1/600] (Sail)

Editor's Note: Said to be 142mm long

Kangnam:
   GENERAL COMMENTS: A South Korean company. I'm not sure, but they may be connected to Hap Dong somehow. I seem to recall that my Kangnam 1/600 Enterprise model was originally sold to me as a Hapdong product, but I can't find the records on it. (DRW)

Enterprise (USN CVN-65) {12000} [1/600] (Cold) FH

New Jersey (USN BB-62) [1/600] (Cold) FH

# Iowa-class (USN BB-61) [1/600] {03601} (WW2-Mod)

Editor's Notes: Presumably the same kit as the Arii Iowa class.

This kit has been issued at various times as:

   * Iowa (BB-61) (kit 03601)
   * New Jersey (BB-62) (kit 03602)
   * Missouri (BB-63) (kit 03603)
   * Wisconsin (BB-64) (kit 03604)

Lindberg:
   GENERAL COMMENTS: Lindberg was founded sometime in 1933, and is thus one of the oldest hobby companies still in business. I have no idea what their product line was back in the 1930s, but it probably did not include plastic model ships.

   They were formerly based in Skokie, Illinois. They are now based in Toledo, Ohio.

   The butt of many a joke for many years, Lindberg is now starting to turn itself around under its new owners, Craft House.

Biloxi (USN CL-80) {881} [1/600] (WW2) FH

POOR. See Cleveland Class. (below)

Cleveland class (USN CL-55) {777M} [1/600] (WW2) FH

POOR. 47 parts, and none of them are good. The hull is wrong, the deck is wrong, the guns are wrong, and the molded-into-the-deck light AA guns are really offensive.

This kit has a particularly bad case of Lindberg steel panel lines. They are particularly offensive on the deck, which should be wood planked.

Some issues of this kit are motorized.

This one is only for kids or masochistic 1/600 fanatics.

MPC:
   GENERAL COMMENTS: Michigan-based Model Products Corporation (MPC) used to be a major manufacturer of plastic model car kits. MPC was founded by former AMT executive George Toteff after he left AMT in 1963. For the most part, MPC didn't make ships. MPC did have a longstanding relationship with Airfix, and some Airfix car kits were released under the MPC label, and vice versa. MPC also re-issued some Airfix ship kits. Apparently, there was a flurry of Airfix re-issues around 1982. Comments that apply to Airfix kits also apply here.

[re-released many of the Airfix kits so I've not bothered listing them]

Monogram:
   GENERAL COMMENTS: Monogram was founded in 1945 in Chicago. They are still in the Chicago area, in Morton Grove, Illinois. Monogram operated as an independent company, until the debacle of their slot-racing sets in the mid-60's forced them to sell out to Mattel, Inc. (the Barbie doll folks) When Aurora left the plastic model business in 1975, Monogram bought most of their molds. Mattel owned Monogram until a leveraged buyout in about 1984 made that company independent again. Monogram merged with US rival Revell in 1986. They still use both brand names.

Bismarck (DKM BB) [1/615] (WW2) FH

Editor's Note: 16 inch (406mm) "box scale" kit

Forrestal class (USN CVA-59) {3504} [1/600] (Cold) FH

OK. Re-issue (circa 1978) of the Aurora Forrestal, but with a much improved aircraft set, including F-4s, A-5s, A-3s and others. 30 airplanes, 3 helos total.

Also released as Independence, Saratoga

Sea Quest DSV (Fictional SSN) [1/600] (Cold) FH

Editor's Note: Issued circa 1994 in conjunction with the sci-fi TV series "Sea Quest DSV". Said to be 19.5 inches long when complete.

Nichimo:
   GENERAL COMMENTS:Nichimo seems to support a number of scale standards. They have a line of 1/500 ships, a line of 1/200 ships, and a line of 30cm "box scale" kits. (i.e. all ships are 30 cm long) Many Nichimo kits are designed to be motorized.

Musashi (IJN BB Yamato-class) [1/600] {U6002} (WW2) WL/FH

Yamato (IJN BB Yamato-class) [1/600] {U6001} (WW2) FH/WL

Presumably same as 1/600 Musashi, possibly lacking a few conversion parts.

OzMods:
   GENERAL COMMENTS: An Australian model company that produces a line of resin models.

Duchess (RN/RAN Daring class DD) [1/600] {OM6001} (Cold) WL

Voyager (RAN Daring class DD) [1/600] {OM6002} (Cold) WL

PT Dockyard:
   GENERAL COMMENTS:Small resin kits of WW1 and WW2 coastal craft. Meant for wargaming, but with some work and added detail can be made into good display models. All are 1/600 scale.

# 1200 ton freighter {MR3} (WW2)

# 250 ton Coaster (generic freighter) {MR1} (WW2)

# 700 ton Coaster (generic straight stem freighter) {MR5} (WW2)

# 800 ton German Coaster (generic freighter) {MR4} (WW2)

# 40' CMB (RN MTB) {SF1} (WW1)

# 46' Daihatsu barge (IJN) {JN1} (WW2)

# PT 369 (USN Scott Paine 70' design) {US9} (WW2)

# PT 59 (USN Elco 77' gunboat conversion) {US10} (WW2)

# 78' Higgins PT (USN) {US2} (WW2)

Includes parts for early and late boats.

# 80' Elco PT (USN) {US1} (WW2)

1944 version.

# "Thunderbolt" PT (USN Elco 80' w/ quad 20mm) {US8} (WW2)

# 83' Cutter (USCG) {US11} (WW2)

# 110' SC (USN wood subchaser) {US5} (WW2)

# 173' PC (USN steel-hull subchaser) {US5} (WW2)

# ASRC "crash boat" (USN 63' motor boat) {US4} (WW2)

# French Chasseur CH14 (Free French subchaser) {FR4} (WW2)

# LM7 (Imperial German MTBs) {SF2} (WW1)

# MTB 5-6 (Norweigian) {SF2} (NW1)

60' Vosper design. Also operated by RN as MTB 71-72.

# PGM 1 (USN gunboat) {US6} (WW2)

Gunboat version of 110' subchaser.

# Shinyo suicide boats (IJN) {JN3} (WW2)

# Subchaser (USN wooden subchaser) {SF3} (WW1)

# Two-master schooner {MR6} (steel/WW1/WW2)

With optional armament to make Axis "Q-Schooner" decoy escort craft.

# Tanker barge (generic 150' transport) {MR7} (WW2)

# TM 4 (Dutch MTB) {NE1} (WW2)

# Type "C" Armored Gunboat (IJN) {JN4} (WW2)

# Type T-38 (IJN MTB) {JN2} (WW2)

# Vantul (Romanian MTB) {RM1} (WW2)

# Viscocul (Romanian MTB) {RM2} (WW2)

# VTB 8 (Early French/Free French MTB) {FR1} (WW2)

# VTB 11-12 (French MTB) {FR2} (WW2)

Taken over as MGB 98-99 by RN.

# VTB 23 (British-built French MTB) {FR3} (WW2)

# "Tiger Fleet" partisan boat (Yugoslav) {YG1} (WW2)

Revell:

Bismarck (DKM BB) {H-350/05036} [1/570] (WW2) FH
The kit scales out to 1/588 for 814 or 1/595 for a length of 823, depending on your sources.

United States (US Ocean Liner) {H-332} [1/600] FH

Thoroughbred:

   Manufacturer of metal 1/600 ships. US Civil War unless otherwise noted. Small, meant for wargaming, all waterline. Useful in dioramas, can be detailed with parts they sell and scratchwork. Some models serve for entire class, like USS Passaic.

[Have not bothered with their extensive list of ships - not really kits as we tend to think of them?]

Tom's Modelworks:
GENERAL COMMENTS: A small resin manufacturer.

DeGaulle (French CVN) [1/600] (Modern)

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Quite a list eh?  Even if many of them are the same kit recycled and some may well be well-nigh impossible to find.  Nevertheless, enough to keep even the diehard 1/600 fans busy for a while.  I guess I count as one, as the scale alone means I have a copy of the Testor's LST and some unidentifiable Asian manufactured Bismarck! Both look fairly dreadful on the sprues though so caveat emptor and don't blame me if the list prompts you into buying something even worse than the Airfix Rommel...  

Paul
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