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 Post subject: Re: Me 262 - War Winner?
PostPosted: Fri 21 Jul 2017 14:58 pm 
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IIRC the 262 was a axial turbojet where as the Whittle a centrifugal engine. whittle was aware of the axial flow but know the alloys required to deal with the temperatures were not yet available, hence the route he went down. The 262 was a amazing achievement given the circumstances of its development, so we're a lot of the other jets developed by the Germans.

In answer to the original question, no I don't think it would have changed the outcome of the war, partly for the reasons stated earlier but mainly because the German regime was too rigid and unable to prevent catastrophic decisions made by the leadership. There are reasons why several plans to assassinate Hitler were dropped, by his ineptitude he was helping us win.

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 Post subject: Re: Me 262 - War Winner?
PostPosted: Fri 21 Jul 2017 23:50 pm 
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Britain was also developing Axial turbojets from 1940 onwards. The Metrovick F.2 turbojet was fitted to a Glsoter Meteor in underslung nacelles similar to the Me262 in 1943. Although the engines were more powerful than the Whittle designs, research was halted due However, the F.2 engine suffered from a number of problems that cast doubts on its reliability. These were primarily due to hot spots building up on the turbine bearing and combustion chamber. The latter, in turn, caused warping and fractures of the turbine inlet nozzles.. Metropolitan Vickers eventually sold their engine interests to Armstrong Siddeley and the designs resulted in the F.9 Sapphire.

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 Post subject: Re: Me 262 - War Winner?
PostPosted: Sat 22 Jul 2017 00:30 am 
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I see that almost everyone has focused on the engines as the difference maker in the 262, but the swept wing design was at least as important. The first British jets, the Meteor and Vampire, and American jets, P-80 and P-59, were still based on conventional wing aerodynamics, which severely limited the maximum Mach number they could achieve. But the swept wing 262 directly spawned the F-86 and MiG-15, which were to then fight it out over Korea.

I don't see the 262 as being a difference maker in WWII, unless it had been available in quantity in August of 1940. The failure to neutralise Great Britain meant that Nazi Germany was doomed to fight a two front war which it could not win.

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 Post subject: Re: Me 262 - War Winner?
PostPosted: Sat 22 Jul 2017 10:56 am 
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The Me262 wasn't "swept wing" in the same way as later jets. The leading edge wing sweep of the Me262 was only 18.5°, too slight to achieve any significant advantage in increasing the critical Mach number. Sweep was added after the initial design of the aircraft, when the engines proved heavier than originally expected, primarily to position the center of lift properly relative to the center of mass.

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 Post subject: Re: Me 262 - War Winner?
PostPosted: Sat 22 Jul 2017 18:53 pm 
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Do you have a source for that? It would seem a lot easier (to my simple mind) to adjust the nacelles than the wing sweep. Sure, the Sunderland's and Tiger Moth's (e.g.) wings were altered that way, but it's a bit different with a jet engine that has no prop in front of it to get in the way of adjustments. Jet intakes have been known to be placed behind the leading edge (e.g. Concorde). Not so with props afaik.

Edit: I see that it's described as you wrote on Wikipedia. That's good enough for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Me 262 - War Winner?
PostPosted: Sat 22 Jul 2017 19:10 pm 
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A wing sweep of 18.5 degrees would reduce chordwise flow Mach Number by about 5% . In contrast, something like the Boeing 707, with a sweep of 35 degrees, would see the chordwise flow Mach number decrease by 18%

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 Post subject: Re: Me 262 - War Winner?
PostPosted: Sat 22 Jul 2017 21:42 pm 
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low speed handling was something that crops up with sweeping wings.

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 Post subject: Re: Me 262 - War Winner?
PostPosted: Sat 22 Jul 2017 21:50 pm 
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Wingtips tend to stall first. Since they are aft of the c.g., this results in an uncontrollable pitch-up. On the F-100 it was referred to as the "Sabre dance."

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 Post subject: Re: Me 262 - War Winner?
PostPosted: Sun 23 Jul 2017 01:41 am 
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This is why I thought that a very moderate sweep was adopted for the Me 262.

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 Post subject: Re: Me 262 - War Winner?
PostPosted: Sun 23 Jul 2017 18:55 pm 
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I would like to disassociate myself from any suggestion that the Nazi's may have been capable of "winning the war." Nazi Germany lost the war for good reason. They were evil, perverted fools who attempted the impossible for the worst of reasons and barely avoided being atomically vaporized. If the Me 262 had been introduced earlier, the only realistic outcome may have been the dropping of a-bombs on Germany. The failure of the Germans to build a workable uranium bomb, when Czechoslovakia was the world's largest source of uranium, is just one of a whole slew of German failures during the war. Please don't give them credit where none is due.

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 Post subject: Re: Me 262 - War Winner?
PostPosted: Sun 23 Jul 2017 19:48 pm 
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Was the Me262 a war winning weapon? To my mind. The answer is no. It's pretty much the same reason that the tank wasn't a war winning weapon in WWI. Although both were revolutionary for their time period. Neither were total solutions.

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 Post subject: Re: Me 262 - War Winner?
PostPosted: Sun 23 Jul 2017 22:25 pm 
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dancho wrote:
If the Me 262 had been introduced earlier, the only realistic outcome may have been the dropping of a-bombs on Germany.
If it had been introduced early enough to cause the USAAF to cease daylight bombing - just as they did after Schweinfurt/Regensburg, then much of the FlAK and fighter resources would have been released to the Eastern Front. One of the Nazis - I forget who said it - said that their biggest mistake was not putting enough effort into home defense early enough. So, with all those 88s and 128s free to go East, with Britain possibly unable to sustain Arctic Convoys, no chance of a landing in France to appease the sovs - Stalin might have given up. Not very likely since noone hated Hitler more, but possibly. And if he didn't give up, then it's at least likely that more and better submarines would have been able to be built (without bomber disruption of production). Add to this the prospect of Me 262s patrolling over the Bay of Biscay protecting U-boats from marauding Mosquitos, Wellingtons, Liberators and Beaufighters, and Britain might have starved. Just one scenario in which an A-bomb would not have been dropped on Germany.

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 Post subject: Re: Me 262 - War Winner?
PostPosted: Sun 23 Jul 2017 23:04 pm 
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dancho wrote:
I would like to disassociate myself from any suggestion that the Nazi's may have been capable of "winning the war."
Germany was never close to getting an A-bomb. When you compare the enormous effort and resources put into the Manhattan Project to the German program you realise just how far away they were. Germany never had a reactor achieve criticality, did not have a uranium enrichment program, did not have a plutonium program, and did not have the scientists to figure out how to detonate a plutonium bomb by implosion. Germany would have had to scale up it's effort by orders of magnitude to have had any shot of beating the US (and British) to a working device. Even then, they were missing critical data on the fission reaction cross section of U-235 to slow and fast neutrons.

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 Post subject: Re: Me 262 - War Winner?
PostPosted: Mon 24 Jul 2017 00:49 am 
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I think that was one of Dancho's points, Dr. Russ :)

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 Post subject: Re: Me 262 - War Winner?
PostPosted: Sun 30 Jul 2017 13:21 pm 
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Spudgun wrote:
Was the Me262 a war winning weapon? To my mind. The answer is no. It's pretty much the same reason that the tank wasn't a war winning weapon in WWI. Although both were revolutionary for their time period. Neither were total solutions.
Good analogy. Ideas in advance of the required doctrine and technology, and though advanced, not quite enough so to be immune to existing weaponry.

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