Airfix Logo

Humbrol Logo

The Airfix Tribute Forum was established in April 2006 to discuss the making of Airfix models.

Email: admin at airfixtributeforum.co.uk

It is currently Wed 26 Jul 2017 19:28 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Spitfire cockpit colour
PostPosted: Sat 22 Jan 2011 10:41 am 
Offline
Site Owner
User avatar

Joined: Sat 22 Apr 2006 07:32 am
Posts: 62017
Location: Northampton UK
: Site Owner
: Administrator
: Group Build Guru
: Group Build Leader
: Model Portfolio
I think I've always painted Spitfire cockpits Hu: 78 Matt Cockpit Green and yet the colour call-out for Airfix's new Mk XII is Hu: 90 Matt Beige Green - a much lighter shade  :shock:
Is this lighter shade correct  :?:
Is it supposed to be a faded version of Hu: 78  :shrug:
Was Hu: 78 Matt Cockpit Green not the standard colour I'd come to think of it  :scratch:

_________________
Living the dream
My Portfolio
My current Workbench


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 22 Jan 2011 12:10 pm 
Offline
Gold & Silver Stars
Gold & Silver Stars
User avatar

Joined: Wed 11 Nov 2009 19:24 pm
Posts: 4519
Location: Chelmsford
Ratch, I've had a long discussion with Edgar about this. One of the things you notice when looking at colour photos of Spitfire cockpits is that the internal colour is not the usual grey-green associated with British aircraft of this period, but on first glance it is easy to think that it is. Supermarine and apparently their sub-contractors were using a lighter hue grey-green which matched quite well with the old Hu 90, but this has since been modified to look more like Sky (apparently) so is likely to be a little bit on the pale side. For Spitfire cockpits I use Hu 90 darkened with a smidge of Hu 78. If you're less fussy then Hu 90 straight out of the tin is not far out.

This picture illustrates the colour very well.

The Merlin Spitfire Modeller's Datafile has good photos of restored Spitfires with what we believe to be the correct cockpit colour - not the Mark I, this appears to have been re-painted in a dark green colour some time in its lifetime, although the original colour can be seen where the newer paint has flaked off.

Some folks refer to the colour used by Supermarine as apple green, but to me this is a misnomer, it is a pale-ish mid grey-green.

peebeep

_________________
peebeep aka Paul Brown
IPMS Locate and Cement website
http://www.locate-and-cement.com
RevellAtions
Bring me my chariot of fire


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 22 Jan 2011 12:14 pm 
Offline
Site Owner
User avatar

Joined: Sat 22 Apr 2006 07:32 am
Posts: 62017
Location: Northampton UK
: Site Owner
: Administrator
: Group Build Guru
: Group Build Leader
: Model Portfolio
Cheers Paul, reading around the web I see there are many opinions on this  :o  I'm currently considering a pre-spray with 78 oversprayed with 90 to highlight  :idea:

_________________
Living the dream
My Portfolio
My current Workbench


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 22 Jan 2011 12:15 pm 
Offline
Silver Star
Silver Star
User avatar

Joined: Sat 28 Feb 2009 18:02 pm
Posts: 1021
Location: Staffordshire
Beige green also appears to be the colour call-out for the spinner, which seems a much more likely place to employ it than in the cockpit, so I wonder if it's just an error? Reading the messages above, perhaps not.

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/imag ... ockpit.jpg

This certainly looks lighter than I'd have expected


Chris


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 22 Jan 2011 12:22 pm 
Offline
Gold & Silver Stars
Gold & Silver Stars
User avatar

Joined: Wed 11 Nov 2009 19:24 pm
Posts: 4519
Location: Chelmsford
Dangerbod:292202 wrote:
Beige green also appears to be the colour call-out for the spinner, which seems a much more likely place to employ it than in the cockpit, so I wonder if it's just an error?


Nope, if you look at the picture I've linked that is the colour that was used in Spitfire cockpits, nothing like MAP interior grey-green, a bit like Sky, but not actually Sky.

Believe me, Edgar and I have examined numerous references, Spitfire cockpits were not painted in the usual interior green colour.

It's out understanding that Hu 90 was formulated specifically for the 1/24 Spitfire and was the correct colour, more recently the formula has been adjusted to match Sky.

peebeep

_________________
peebeep aka Paul Brown
IPMS Locate and Cement website
http://www.locate-and-cement.com
RevellAtions
Bring me my chariot of fire


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 22 Jan 2011 12:28 pm 
Offline
Silver Star
Silver Star
User avatar

Joined: Sat 28 Feb 2009 18:02 pm
Posts: 1021
Location: Staffordshire
Not suggesting your knowledge is wrong peebeep, in fact far from it, actually you posted whilst I was pondering hence my reference to the posts above. I would certainly have used the standard cockpit green if it wasn't for this thread, now I'll be modifying my plans :)

Chris


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 22 Jan 2011 12:37 pm 
Offline
Gold & Silver Stars
Gold & Silver Stars
User avatar

Joined: Wed 11 Nov 2009 19:24 pm
Posts: 4519
Location: Chelmsford
Dangerbod:292206 wrote:
Not suggesting your knowledge is wrong peebeep


No worries, I didn't take it that way.  :D

peebeep

_________________
peebeep aka Paul Brown
IPMS Locate and Cement website
http://www.locate-and-cement.com
RevellAtions
Bring me my chariot of fire


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 22 Jan 2011 13:34 pm 
Offline
Gold Star
Gold Star

Joined: Sat 25 Sep 2010 21:45 pm
Posts: 2601
I had trouble getting a difinitive on what the color actually was.

I did my mk 2 with a traditional green color, but the big mk1 i did with a light green, an almost jade color that matches peebeep's photo.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 22 Jan 2011 14:14 pm 
Offline
Silver Bar
Silver Bar
User avatar

Joined: Fri 18 Jun 2010 13:34 pm
Posts: 10007
Location: D'Dee, N'orn I'rn
: --------------------
: Group Build Guru
: AMSIG member
The colour I have seen in the Hendon Spitfire 1 and Hurricane 1 and various Spits and Huricanes under restoration, including 1 I saw fresh back from Russia it was dark, like 78.
Sunlit areas had faded to the interior (cockpit) colour Humbrol has, no. 226

_________________
Al speling misteaks aer all mi own werk..
Its not just how good your painting is, its how good the touch-ups are too.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 22 Jan 2011 16:05 pm 
Offline
Silver Bar
Silver Bar
User avatar

Joined: Fri 18 Jun 2010 13:34 pm
Posts: 10007
Location: D'Dee, N'orn I'rn
: --------------------
: Group Build Guru
: AMSIG member
I would like to add, as a motoring photographer of 40 years experience, the lighting conditions at exposure time and how a resultant print is made can vary the hues of an interior considerably.

Often I had to photograph dark car interiors, black leather, trim etc. To make this less than a just a dark blob I would have to adjust the contrast level to make it a very dark grey, this of course put all the other colours out of kilter.

Anyone who has sat in a single seater fighter will tell you how dark the interior is. The instruments have to be seen clearly in the very much brighter light of 20,000 feet than that at ground level.

I have been in an F4 Phantom, a BAC Lightning, a Hurricane 1 and others. They are dark inside the cockpit at ground level, but are lit with an ethreal light at height.

If you can, get to one of the many museums around the country and see the colours in close up. Thats what I try to do if I'm in doubt.

_________________
Al speling misteaks aer all mi own werk..
Its not just how good your painting is, its how good the touch-ups are too.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 22 Jan 2011 17:07 pm 
Offline
Gold & Silver Stars
Gold & Silver Stars
User avatar

Joined: Wed 11 Nov 2009 19:24 pm
Posts: 4519
Location: Chelmsford
fred:292275 wrote:
If you can, get to one of the many museums around the country and see the colours in close up. That's what I try to do if I'm in doubt.


I have and I don't suffer any doubts. I'm confident that the colours in both the pictures linked by myself and dangerbod are a reasonable reflection of Spitfire cockpit colour, it is a pale grey-green, similar to, but not identical to Sky. It is not like the usual interior green, although you might find museum restorations and warbirds painted thus, but it is bogus. Late war production and post war production might be in black.

peebeep

_________________
peebeep aka Paul Brown
IPMS Locate and Cement website
http://www.locate-and-cement.com
RevellAtions
Bring me my chariot of fire


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 22 Jan 2011 18:01 pm 
Offline
Red Star
Red Star

Joined: Thu 24 Jun 2010 02:45 am
Posts: 328
Location: United States
Although this may not be helpful for Mk. XII, if you scroll down to the bottom of the page you will see (me)sitting in a Mk Vb cockpit: http://fairchild24.com/osh08.htm

Edit- The link should work now.

_________________
-Skyler
A farmer asks how to get a F-104. The Government replies to buy some land. One week later, the farmer has his F-104.


Last edited by Starfighter on Sat 22 Jan 2011 18:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 22 Jan 2011 18:12 pm 
Offline
Silver Bar
Silver Bar
User avatar

Joined: Sat 22 Apr 2006 01:22 am
Posts: 12764
Location: Nanaimo. British Columbia. Canadia
: Group Build Leader
: Airfix Modelling SIG Member
Starfighter: Your link didn't work because the "." at the end is included in the link.

Restored aircraft can be notoriously unreliable.

As to Fred's discussion on dark cockpit colours, this doesn't always hold true. RLM 02 isn't very dark (although the later RLM 66 Schwarzgrau certainly is), and many modern fighters (and even recently-retired Harriers) have light grey cockpits.

_________________
Portfolio


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 22 Jan 2011 18:35 pm 
Offline
Red Star
Red Star

Joined: Thu 24 Jun 2010 02:45 am
Posts: 328
Location: United States
Brews:292319 wrote:
Starfighter: Your link didn't work because the "." at the end is included in the link.


Oop's, I will correct that.

Quote:
Restored aircraft can be notoriously unreliable.


Agreed.

_________________
-Skyler
A farmer asks how to get a F-104. The Government replies to buy some land. One week later, the farmer has his F-104.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat 22 Jan 2011 22:36 pm 
Offline
Silver Bar
Silver Bar
User avatar

Joined: Fri 18 Jun 2010 13:34 pm
Posts: 10007
Location: D'Dee, N'orn I'rn
: --------------------
: Group Build Guru
: AMSIG member
Quote:
Restored aircraft can be notoriously unreliable.


Agreed.[/quote]

Yes I agree too.

However there is plenty of non-restored metal in museums. Large parts and small parts, and the majority are cockpit area pieces.
One has only to go to Hendon or Brooklands and ask and one can see wreckage parts of all sorts of airframes.

I trust what I have actually seen rather than photographs of dubious provenance.

I still say Hu78 is more correct than any lighter shade tending towards Hu90

_________________
Al speling misteaks aer all mi own werk..
Its not just how good your painting is, its how good the touch-ups are too.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun 23 Jan 2011 10:52 am 
Offline
Silver Star
Silver Star
User avatar

Joined: Sat 28 Feb 2009 18:02 pm
Posts: 1021
Location: Staffordshire
Well for what it's worth I'm going to use a slightly lightened shade of cockpit green, with dry brushed hi-lights, Hu90 just doesn't look right to me, it's just too pale. Strikes me this is a bit like the endless arguments over the exact colours applied to German tanks, the folk who applied it were too busy at the time to worry about the shades of paint they were using and the original samples are getting on for seventy years old, so faded and oxidised. Let's not forget of course that batches of paint often vary anyway, in wartime I suspect more than ever. So I will apply my standard rule of thumb, if it looks right that'll do for me.

Chris


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun 23 Jan 2011 14:40 pm 
Offline
Gold & Silver Stars
Gold & Silver Stars
User avatar

Joined: Wed 11 Nov 2009 19:24 pm
Posts: 4519
Location: Chelmsford
fred:292387 wrote:
I trust what I have actually seen rather than photographs of dubious provenance.


I trust the word of Edgar Brooks who's checked out numerous cockpits himself and there is plenty of photo evidence that I wouldn't necessarily take to be of 'dubious provenance'. When we first started discussing it we were both agreed that it was a surprise, the assumption seems to be that you are looking at the equivalent of Hu 78 when actually you are not. Edgar has since checked out documents from Supermarine and can say somewhat categorically that what we refer to as cockpit grey green was not used. Hu 78 is matched to BS381 283, a colour that was not in use by the MAP at the time. Do a search for other types and you might be surprised - this Hurricane cockpit doesn't look at all like Hu 78.

It's taken me a while to get used to the idea that what has previously been accepted as fact isn't necessarily so. I'm looking at all reference material with a much more open mind these days and say to myself 'what do I see', rather than 'what do I expect to see'. The other thing we are given to understand that Hu 90 'Beige Green' was formulated for the 1/24 Spitfire interior when it was first released. One would assume that whoever did the research was on to something back then. This is reasonably similar to Sky and has been used as a Sky substitute by many of us, although it was not identical to Sky. We are also now given to understand that Hu 90 has since been re-formulated to match Sky.  :?

As with the Sky debate itself it seems to be a case of the more I find out the less I know!

peebeep

_________________
peebeep aka Paul Brown
IPMS Locate and Cement website
http://www.locate-and-cement.com
RevellAtions
Bring me my chariot of fire


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun 23 Jan 2011 15:21 pm 
Offline
Site Owner
User avatar

Joined: Sat 22 Apr 2006 07:32 am
Posts: 62017
Location: Northampton UK
: Site Owner
: Administrator
: Group Build Guru
: Group Build Leader
: Model Portfolio
peebeep:292539 wrote:
the more I find out the less I know!

Johnny Nash - There Are More Questions Than Answers  :lol:

_________________
Living the dream
My Portfolio
My current Workbench


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon 17 Jul 2017 18:43 pm 
Offline
Red Star
Red Star

Joined: Sun 10 Feb 2013 20:08 pm
Posts: 380
Location: Sevenoaks, Kent
I have just started an Airfix Mk XII Spitfire (AO5117) and was intrigued by the Hu 90 call out. Thus, I was straight to the ATF for the definitive answer. I love this forum, and thank you all for the information..


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ] 

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group

The Airfix Tribute Forum

The Airfix Tribute Forum - Est. 2006 | Make a Donation


modelsforsale.com