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 Post subject: Re: Cotes and varnishes
PostPosted: Mon 06 Mar 2017 00:37 am 
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MattNSW wrote:
Just to add a bit to my earlier posts about clear cote rattle cans, I've been using a mixture of Humbrol and Tamiya acrylics on my kits, and although the Tamiya rattle can worked beautifully on the Tamiya paint, it totally wrecked the Humrol, cracking and bubbling all over the place. I'll put it down to experience and move onto the next kit, but if you didn't know about this issue...beware!
Beware indeed. This may well be the result if you use rattle cans over enamels or water-based acrylics. In this case Humbrol clear over Humbrol green gloss enamel.
Image

I did quite an extensive research into this by applying several types and brands of paint over each other. Mainly to test the ever returning myth that you can't apply enamels over acrylics or vice versa. The results of the tests were:
- applying enamels over water-based acrylics is no problem at all. Even if the first paint only had a short time to dry.
- applying water-based acrylics over enamels is no problem either.

So what caused the myth? Well probably the solvent-based acrylics. I never knew this before the research but there are two types of acrylics. First of all the harmless water-based ones such as those from Revell, Humbrol, Vallejo and even Tamiya (in the glass jars). But secondly the aggressive solvent-based acrylics that are used a lot in spray cans. These are sometimes also referred to as lacquer or cellulose paint. Except for the Vallejo clear spray can, all the ones I have tested (Humbrol, Revell, Tamiya, Citadel and Motip) contained solvent-based acrylics and attacked underlying layers of enamels and even some water-based acrylics (these are generally more resistant but no guarantees there). Some paints are more sensitive than others and decanting the paint from the spray can to an airbrush does help but always take extreme caution when applying clear from a spray can over your model. Always test first!

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 Post subject: Re: Cotes and varnishes
PostPosted: Mon 06 Mar 2017 10:28 am 
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Now that is very useful to know, thank you. This is why I frequent ATF, if there's something I'm thinking of doing there's every chance that someone else has already been and done it :D I've been having beginners issues with all of this frosting and cracking, I think I might just throw in the towel and have some Astonish sent over from the UK. It'll cost a bit but in the long run it'll be cheaper than endlessly throwing my money away on things which should work but don't. Would I be right in thinking that a couple of coats of Astonish would protect an underlying acrylic coat from any bad effects of a rattle can Matt coat?

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 Post subject: Re: Cotes and varnishes
PostPosted: Mon 06 Mar 2017 11:11 am 
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Last question first; no.
When spraying from any rattle can, mist the first two coats on leaving time between them for the carrier solvent to vapour off, then the third and fourth coats can be heavier

It'll be cheaper and quicker to get an equivalent to Astonish locally.
Due to transport regulations it cannot be sent by air, only surface mail, or courier within the UK. And even by surface mail it might be not allowed by regulations.

ejk is only partially right; its not the paint itself, but the carrier, the stuff used to thin it which is the problem.
eg; for very quick drying I thin acrylic paints for spraying with cellulose thinners, but if I put a heavy coat of this paint mix on top of another it'll go like that picture, but if I thin with water I don't get that affect

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 Post subject: Re: Cotes and varnishes
PostPosted: Mon 06 Mar 2017 13:43 pm 
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<Sigh> This modemaking business is really turning out to be more complex than I thought it'd be. It's lucky it's so rewarding, otherwise I'd go back to sticking my head in a book of an evening. :roll: Will misting avoid wrecking the paint (or at least minimise the chances of it)? Finding an Aussie equivalent to Klear is now my mission. I shall report back.

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 Post subject: Re: Cotes and varnishes
PostPosted: Mon 06 Mar 2017 14:04 pm 
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robunos wrote:
Re. my post upthread, I've seen 'BONA' on sale in B and Q the other day . . .
Would that be this stuff?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BONA-REFILL-FOR-FLOATING-TIMBER-WOOD-FLOOR-SPRAY-MOP-SYSTEM-2-5-LITRE-/162380370332?hash=item25ce9fd19c:g:Jo4AAOSwUKxYktJw

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 Post subject: Re: Cotes and varnishes
PostPosted: Mon 06 Mar 2017 15:44 pm 
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Misting on coats from a rattle can will minimise the potential of orange peel

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 Post subject: Re: Cotes and varnishes
PostPosted: Mon 06 Mar 2017 20:49 pm 
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MattNSW wrote:
robunos wrote:
Re. my post upthread, I've seen 'BONA' on sale in B and Q the other day . . .
Would that be this stuff?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BONA-REFILL-FOR-FLOATING-TIMBER-WOOD-FLOOR-SPRAY-MOP-SYSTEM-2-5-LITRE-/162380370332?hash=item25ce9fd19c:g:Jo4AAOSwUKxYktJw


Just....stop. At those prices why not just bite the bullet and buy the real deal?

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Pledge-Floor ... SwCfdXov5u

I'm not selling this stuff but at this rate I'm tempted to start.

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 Post subject: Re: Cotes and varnishes
PostPosted: Mon 06 Mar 2017 21:00 pm 
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Here's a link for the U.K.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from= ... h&_sacat=0

Just search for "Pledge Floor Finish" and you'll get plenty of plenty of places to buy Pledge Floor Finish from the U.S. Then we can finally lock this thread and stop the hurting. (You can search for Pledge Floor Finish on eBay Australia and get the same result.) Just buy the Pledge Floor Finish. It's good old Klear/Future in the original formula. I'm suspecting that our collective failure to find this stuff on eBay has to do with a bad searching protocol. You have to break down and call it "finish." Varnish, polish, and wax are no good. We don't call it that here in the U.S. and we won't call it that on Mars when we get there either. Varnish is Spar Varnish made from linseed oil and crushed beetle shells (ew). Polish contains an abrasive or is a sausage. Wax is WAX. Call it an acrylic finish and while you're at it correct all the bizarre references to acrylic "wax" and acrylic "polish" and acrylic "varnish." Stop that behavior this instant!

Pledge Floor Finish. Learn it. Know it. Live it.

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 Post subject: Re: Cotes and varnishes
PostPosted: Mon 06 Mar 2017 23:04 pm 
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MattNSW wrote:
No . . . that's just a cleaner.
BONA wood floor polish doesn't seem to be available in Australia. The stuff that seems to be the Australian equivalent is Refresher :-
http://bona.net.au/HomeOwners/Products1 ... r%20floors
BUT . . . Looking at the data sheets, UK Polish contains acrylic whereas OZ Refresher does not, although they both contain polyurethane. I would do as Dancho suggests, and try and get hold of some 'Pledge' polish, unless you feel like experimenting with the Refresher . . . :juggle:
cheers,
Robin.

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 Post subject: Re: Cotes and varnishes
PostPosted: Mon 06 Mar 2017 23:40 pm 
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Was just wondering are the Humbrol model cotes suitable to airbrush, do they require thinning and has anyone had any experience with them, especially the gloss one


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 Post subject: Re: Cotes and varnishes
PostPosted: Mon 06 Mar 2017 23:55 pm 
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ejk wrote:
First of all the harmless water-based ones such as those from Revell, Humbrol, Vallejo and even Tamiya (in the glass jars). But secondly the aggressive solvent-based acrylics that are used a lot in spray cans.
In fact Tamiya acrylic is spirit based that is miscible with water, which can be used for thinning and clean up. It actually sprays beautifully when thinned with cellulose/lacquer. It can also cause problems when mixed with other media, a common glitch is acrylic varnish top coats cracking up after application.

I think you'll find the reason that acrylic aerosols have hot solvent in the propellant is to make sure the pigment goes through and doesn't bung up the nozzle.

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 Post subject: Re: Cotes and varnishes
PostPosted: Wed 08 Mar 2017 11:30 am 
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dancho wrote:
Just search for "Pledge Floor Finish" and you'll get plenty of plenty of places to buy Pledge Floor Finish from the U.S. Then we can finally lock this thread and stop the hurting. (You can search for Pledge Floor Finish on eBay Australia and get the same result.)
We poor Antipodeans have to import it from the UK/US, and the cost is around $70 including postage and packaging. That's about fifty quid for a bottle of floor finish. I doubt any of us could prise our wallets open at that price even if we wanted to.

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 Post subject: Re: Cotes and varnishes
PostPosted: Wed 08 Mar 2017 23:17 pm 
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I don't know if some kind of import duties have to be paid or what, but let's consider this for a moment. $70 and the hurting goes away. If you want to continue to hunt for something to "replace" Pledge Floor Care Finish that's fine with me but me, I'd pay it. It's just too important to throw it away in a dispute over a "fair" price. I'd pay $100 a bottle if I had to, in order to acquire a bottle of the real deal. What does a kit cost now? It's not a dollar. It's not five. Lunch for one is $10 at McDonald's. Dinner and a movie for two is $100. A trip to the ball park can be several hundred if you bring the whole gang. It's relative. I used up one bottle of Future (Pledge Floor Care Finish) in ten years, and some of that went on the floor. It lasts a long long time. Spread it out over ten years and even $200 is just twenty per year. I can't convince someone who won't be convinced but some of this is just beyond my understanding.

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 Post subject: Re: Cotes and varnishes
PostPosted: Thu 09 Mar 2017 10:37 am 
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Hmmmmm....now you put it that way...

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Last edited by Ratch on Thu 09 Mar 2017 17:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Unnecessary quote deleted


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 Post subject: Re: Cotes and varnishes
PostPosted: Wed 20 Sep 2017 15:33 pm 
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I have a can of Tamiya ts-80 flat clear and am rather hesitant to use it after reading some of the posts in this thread. Some however have suggested that it will be okay if applied in very thin mists. I would be applying it over humbrol clear and humbrol/Revell acrylics. Does anyone have any first hand experience with this specific combo being fine or otherwise? Or should I just go and buy some of the humbrol stuff?

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 Post subject: Re: Cotes and varnishes
PostPosted: Wed 20 Sep 2017 15:43 pm 
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Joe, its always best to test on something that doesn't matter :idea: Paint a bit of runner with your usual acrylics and gloss coat, then try your Tamiya matt on that - it should give you an indication :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Cotes and varnishes
PostPosted: Wed 20 Sep 2017 15:47 pm 
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Thanks Ratch, I will test it of course, was just wondering if I could benefit from anyone else's previous misfortune (or otherwise) :oops:

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